Roses forum→May already? Here's to a wonderful spring!

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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 15, 2014 4:53 PM CST
Toni ...

My post was more about how you start your roses out when you first plant them.

My climate is harsher that Sue's or Zuzu's, but not as harsh as yours.

California has cold hardiness zones from zone 1 through zone 11.

I just read an article on ATP about winterizing roses. Sounded right on to me.

http://garden.org/ideas/view/J...

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 15, 2014 8:18 PM CST
Thanks for the advice, Lyn.

I love getting rose care advice from other rose growers. I almost gave up growing roses after a couple of winters of dead sticks until I happened upon an own root Austin Wildeve and found the internet rose groups. This was before ATP, but with many of the same people on this board.

I would love to know your recommendations of roses that are cane hardy to zone 5.

This is the first time that I heard the advice of topdressing the rose instead of amending the planting hole with compost or manure. By the time I manage to dig a hole large enough to plant a rose, I end up removing so many rocks that I have to add something to refill the hole.

I already perk test. I can dig a hole, fill it with water and it could still be holding water the next morning. That usually means that there is a huge rock in that location. If I can't find the boundaries with a pitchfork and move it, I move on and plant the rose elsewhere. I fill the poorly draining spot with less fussy annuals or perennials or put a stepping stone there. Poor drainage would be a double problem for me - both rainy warm weather and spring's freeze thaw cycles. This spring was unusual, everything stayed frozen under a couple of feet of snow.

My grandmother used to put a fish head in the hole with any new plant. She also made fish head soup. (It is a buttermilk based creamy soup, the fish heads are strained out before serving). My grandfather loved deep sea fishing, so there was always plenty of fish in the freezer.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 15, 2014 9:50 PM CST
Hi Andi ...

I've read your posts about moving and was awed by your determination ... Smiling

>>>I love getting rose care advice from other rose growers. I almost gave up growing roses after a couple of winters of dead sticks until I happened upon an own root Austin Wildeve and found the internet rose groups. This was before ATP, but with many of the same people on this board.

The reason I joined ATP was to learn about other plants besides roses because I don't want to have a mono garden. I've been obsessed about roses for a couple decades, but I truly need to expand my horizons. ATP has been a wonderful resource.

>>>I would love to know your recommendations of roses that are cane hardy to zone 5.

If you could send me a t-mail telling me what kind of roses you like, I can narrow down the list ... it's a long one

>>>This is the first time that I heard the advice of topdressing the rose instead of amending the planting hole with compost or manure. By the time I manage to dig a hole large enough to plant a rose, I end up removing so many rocks that I have to add something to refill the hole.

Ralph Moore would often tell me to look at what nature does when planting my roses. He said "God doesn't put junk in the soil for a new plant." Of course that is a generalization because amending soil can help many plants. It's just that the botany of a rose is such that having all of that stuff deep in the hole is useless for a rose. It may be beneficial for other plants that have a different kind of root system.

My primary gardening area is incredibly rocky. When I started this garden, I could not dig a hole with a shovel and a pick was useful only part way down. I don't know if you are removing large rocks or just a lot of small stones tightly compressed together. Mine is the latter. I've learned the hard way, that if I put compost into the planting hole, when it decomposes, the plant sinks because the decomposed particles are smaller than the rocky soil around the planting hole.

If I were to prepare a whole bed at one time, it would not be so noticeable. My back fill consists of native soil and a lot of the smaller rocks that I dug up plus either cinder rock or lava rock.

The reason I use the cinder/lava rocks is that they are more porous and as the compost/manure/mulch decomposes the nutrients, generally in the form of humic acids, can attach to the rough edges of the cinder/lava rock better than other kinds of stones. The nutrients are then more available to the rose.

I don't know if your native soil is clay, but if it is, the use of compost to amend the clay soil is only a temporary fix, but you will find that most sites recommend amending clay soil with compost to improve the soil. It may add nutrients for a while, but once the compost decomposes, you are back to clay soil. Using small rocks along with the native soil is a more permanent fix. The use of the rocks also allows more oxygen to get into the soil, which is required by both the soil bacteria and worms to do their part of improving your soil.

You can add compost to the top part of the planting hole, but be sure to mound it up, if you are not preparing a whole bed because it will decompose and the plant will sink. The feeder roots of a rose are located in that area, so the plant will benefit.

Not planting a rose in a hole that fails the perk test is very wise.

>>>>My grandmother used to put a fish head in the hole with any new plant.

There's nothing wrong with that for some plants, but it is a waste of a fish head for a rose ... Smiling since their feeder roots are located near the top of the soil.

btw ... I have a no-till garden because I have so much rock in my soil. I've been mulching this garden with shredded oak leaves with small wood chips on top so that the leaves stay put for ten years. This year I planted bulbs using a hand trowel. Rocky soil doesn't stay rocky.

I hope this helps.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 15, 2014 10:16 PM CST
About 16 years ago, I was in NNY with my mom and she wanted to plant a tomato garden. My family eats LOTS of tomatoes, so we went to Walmart & bought 5 little itty bitty tomato plants. I put them in the ground she chose for the tomato garden & fenced it off to keep the bunnies out. About 2 weeks later, my uncle & his 3 sons came to visit, so we all went fishing. I caught a couple of nice sized bass, but wanted to throw them in as I don't eat fish. My uncle wanted them, so we kept them. Took them to my mother's house where I gutted, deheaded & finned, and scaled the fish. There was 3 bigger bass (about 16-20" each), so there was a lot of waste. I put it all in a 5gal bucket & filled it with water, then put the lid on the bucket. I sat that bucket behind my mom's barn/garage and there it sat for about a week fermenting. I then opened it up and liked to died from the stench. Whoo nelly did that STINK. I used the elbow-length gloves & a long sleeve shirt to keep as much of it off of me as possible & dumped the fishwater onto my mom's tomato plants. Those stinking (literally!) plants got to be about 6ft tall and the little 5 plants ended up covering a 15' circle (I know it was 15' because the fence was only 15 feet long and that's all the fence I had. We had SOOOO many tomatoes it wasn't funny. Probably got a good 40-50lbs of tomatoes. She canned tomatoes, she roasted tomatoes.. tomatoes tomatoes tomatoes.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 15, 2014 10:55 PM CST
Toni .......

What a great story. Yes, applying fish as fertilizer on top of the plants is magnificent even for roses ... Smiling

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 16, 2014 2:07 AM CST
They call this area "the slate belt". I am in the Pocono mountains in PA. I used to live just over the border from NJ by Route 80 (the same Route 80 that keeps going to CA). I am a bit west of there now. The neighborhood has lakes including a stocked fishing lake. That is Winston the pug's favorite place to walk. He likes to drink fresh stream water. I haven't been fishing for years, but should get a license. A chum bucket for roses,...hmmm....

I have all kinds of rocks. Wait until you see the pictures of my new "yard" - a few plants planted by former occupants, tree stumps from newly cut trees, weeds and the centerpiece of the yard - the fire circle complete with rusted "burn barrel". I have all sorts of rocks. Every yard in the neighborhood has large rocks in their gardens. I am certain that none are imported. Rock gardens and ponds would be the sensible garden choice, but I love my roses! I ignore the smaller rocks and use them for drainage. I remove the m,edium ones that I can lift - typically potato sized to melon sized. Anything bigger waits for me to throw a "move the rock" bbq. I ran into a big, heavy flat rock about 3' x 2'. I tried to wedge it on my moving truck, but it didn't work. I really want it moved eventually, just need a few good men....well one extremely strong one or two regular ones.

My goal is cottage style plantings of roses and complimentary plants in raised beds surrounded by rocks separated by walkways with flat stepping stones. There are lots of those in "the slate belt". If I don't find enough stepping stones making my garden, there are plenty laying about in the wooded areas of the neighborhood. I also use attractive smaller stones as labels. I paint the plant name on the stones. I have also painted inspirational words on some stones. I had seen stones both real and "simulated" with words on them for sale in local gift and craft stores. I can't imagine buying rocks in the Poconos when there are so many free ones lying about everywhere.

Most of my plants got separated from their labels during the moves, but I recognize or have guessed many things. I am grateful for any sign of life at this point. Eventually, I will get everything else figured out.

There is a cool house with a geodesic dome section. They have a complimentary hexagon shaped raised bed made with tree branches. That may be a good idea for raised veggie or flower beds. I have to take and post more pictures. It is a somewhat rustic lake community, grass lawns are the exception, not the rule. Nearby communities, especially the newer "McMansion" ones have newly planted surburban style grass lawns. The Poconos used to be weekend and vacation homes for people from NYC and Phily. It is growing as a surburban area fueled by lower tax rates and cost of living than adjacent areas of NJ and NY. My neighborhood has both weekenders and full time residents.

The native fauna is trees - lovely birch, elm, maple, oak, pine, a few cottonwood, and others. There are huge stands of native (or naturaliized, need to research their origins) rhododendron growing as understory plants, especially near the lakes. They are 6-8' tall . I have never seen so many growing "wild" in one place before. I haven't seen black walnut or black locust trees in this neighborhood, but they were common in my last two places. Rhododendrun are sensitive to juglone from black walnut trees, so I suspect they aren't many in the immediate area.

The soil is rich humus in areas where there are/were trees. Other areas are mixed clay and rock. Tree stumps and roots abound. I had terrible problems with poison ivy in my previous place. One vine had a main stem at least an inch in diameter surrounded with the distinctive furry air roots attaching it to a huge pine tree. It was the biggest poison ivy vine I had seen. I don't miss it at all.

A nearby town is named Effort. I suspect its Quaker founders had difficulty establishing farms among the rocks and trees. Perhaps their horses had difficulty pulling their wagons up the hills. It is pure conjecture. I should research the town's origins.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 16, 2014 7:14 PM CST
Guess whose septic tank is being pumped. Yep, having a great month in my new place.... Anyone want a weekend houseguest?
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 16, 2014 10:20 PM CST
Sure, Andi ... come on out ... Smiling

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
Image
GardenQuilts
May 17, 2014 5:43 AM CST
I would love to be in CA touring your garden in bloom. We could take a road trip to visit zuzu and Sue. I would have to take a layover at the Denver airport to commiserate with skiekitty about rose growing in the mountains.

Oh well, at least it isn't reining today. I am going outside to garden and take a shower at the neighbor's house. A friend is taking me out for dinner.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
Image
GardenQuilts
May 17, 2014 6:20 AM CST
Could someone with a B2G1Free Home Depot rose coupon treemail me a copy? I'll be out on Monday, I can stop by and smell the roses.

I want to go back for two romantica roses - La Traviata and La Traviata Pink. I am not sure about the free one, they also had Tropicana, Grande Dame, Big Mama and a few others.

The Yves St Laurent that I got enjoyed the rain in its pot. I'll see how many rocks I hit digging holes today!

Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
May 17, 2014 2:59 PM CST
I don't think they will accept copies...
Porkpal
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 17, 2014 4:02 PM CST
@GardenQuilts, Andi ..

You would probably visit Sue and Zuzu first ... the airport is closer to them. Then it's about a five hour drive north to get to get to my mountains in Weaverville. I think all of us would welcome you and it would be a great visit.

Their roses start blooming in their gardens about a month before mine start. My roses are just starting to pop ! Hurray!

Hope you had a good evening.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
May 17, 2014 4:10 PM CST

Moderator

Mine have finished their first flush, so I've been deadheading all week in preparation for the second flush. Come on over, Andi.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 17, 2014 4:25 PM CST
I have roses that are about 6-8" tall.. does that count?

I jsut moved Charles de Mills. When I dug him up, he still had the Roses Unlimited tag on the base showing that yes, he IS CdM. My right arm is scratched to hell. But I got him moved. Bleh.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 17, 2014 9:27 PM CST
I saw my first curculio on 'Linda Campbell' down in one of the street beds ... Grumbling

Fr. Glenn is coming over on Wednesday to see the roses, then I am going to dis-bud the whole garden until June 30th. Crying Crying Crying

At least I got to see some of my favorites bloom before the bugs showed up. I'll see more before Wednesday, then it is tough love for me.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
May 17, 2014 10:12 PM CST

Moderator

The curculios are pretty much finished here. Be forewarned, Lyn, that you might suffer a new problem after the disbudding. I read on one website that rose curculio weevils ravage the tender new growth if they can't find any buds. I think it's true because a few weevils were still hanging around after some of the roses had completed their first flush and had been deadheaded. The new growth on those roses looks tattered.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
RoseBlush1
May 17, 2014 10:37 PM CST
You are right, Zuzu. That's why I dis-bud all through from now until the end of June. If I quit dis-budding earlier, I have the problem you have described. I might see a few curculios in July, but that's it.

At least I know they are not breeding in my garden and I can have a good first flush ... or most of one. It depends on the weather as to when the curculios come up out of the ground. With a shorter growing season, losing that first flush was a disaster to me.

There's another benefit for me in that dis-budding forces the rose to push out more foliage which helps them get through the high temps in my climate during the summer months. I don't have the ocean influence that you have.

The roses also push out more buds. When I stop dis-budding and allow them to bloom again, it's almost like having a second first flush. By then, I have gotten more weeding done and more mulch down and I truly can enjoy the garden.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
May 17, 2014 10:54 PM CST

Moderator

I know your disbudding will produce a spectacular flush of blooms. A friend who was having a garden wedding nipped off all of his rosebuds until shortly before the wedding day. When the day arrived, all of the roses were covered in blooms and looked incredible.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
RoseBlush1
May 17, 2014 11:08 PM CST
Zuzu ........

>>>>I know your disbudding will produce a spectacular flush of blooms.

That was one of the BIG surprises the first year I dis-budded the roses. It was totally awesome !

Then when I saw that the additional foliage really helped the plants with the heat, it didn't seem like such a horrible drastic solution to controlling the dang bugs. I honestly would not have figured that one out on my own. Roses are such great teachers ... Green Grin!

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
Image
Skiekitty
May 18, 2014 6:54 AM CST
Trimmed another 20+ roses in the front yard last night. Didn't find any dead. yay!! However, my tallest rose in the front yard, either Tuscan Sun or Sonja, is a whole 10" tall. Everyone is starting 100% front the dirt this year. I never really realized just how thorny Othello really is. Yikes, he was almost as bad as Charles de Mills!! Ouch Time.. Had to trim about 6' off him as he had winter kill all the way to the dirt :(
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...

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