Roses forum→May already? Here's to a wonderful spring!

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Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 18, 2014 7:17 AM CST
Winter kill is depressing. At least everyone survived the winter, Toni.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
Lilies Irises Daylilies Dog Lover Beekeeper Garden Ideas: Master Level
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CindiKS
May 18, 2014 4:17 PM CST
Three of my roses that I *thought* survived the winter are blooming now. aack. They are all Dr. Huey. I'll enjoy the pretty blooms, then dig them out.
The last few days were real busy around our house, so I didn't get to read the forums. What a great discussion here! Lyn, thanks for sharing your knowledge. Literally, I was getting ready to go to Lowes to buy more compost so I could plant more of my body bag roses when I decided to check in on the forum.
I will most definitely let the roses grow longer in the pots, get those roots to a good size. I'll use expanded shale in the planting holes of those big enough to plant. Maybe THIS will be the year my roses grow the way they are supposed to!
Top dressing with compost and mulch is very important in our climate. It protects the soil from the impact of driving rain and hail, and keeps it a little bit cooler and moist.

Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 18, 2014 5:14 PM CST
Trimmed about another 40 in the front yard. The yard is starting to look flat rather than a bunch of dead sticks sticking up. Amazingly, I've only lost 1 rose that I've found in the front yard and that was Paradise, which was never the strongest rose for me. I MAY have lost Circus too, but this is a "wait & see" moment. I think I'll just plant an agastache where Paradise was. I know I don't have to fuss with them as hard.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
[Last edited by Skiekitty - May 18, 2014 11:27 PM (+)]
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Name: Gloria Levely
Sanford Mi. (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: Michigan Lilies Irises
Dog Lover Roses Daylilies Peonies Hostas Clematis
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glevely
May 18, 2014 6:18 PM CST
for the first time I have to cut 4 of my HUGE roses to the ground !!! we will see if they live or not Sad Sad
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 18, 2014 7:24 PM CST
Cindi ...

I am just sharing what others have shared with me and what I have learned along the way.

As I said above, there are a lot of right ways to grow roses. What works for me, may not work for you. I've tried to focus on the botany of roses in the posts above, so climate is not the determining factor, but the anatomy of the plant and how it works is the focus of those posts.

Good luck with your roses.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 20, 2014 8:59 AM CST
I am going to change the way I plant roses as well - following Lyn's recommendations. I am going to add more small stones to the planting hole and top dress with nutrients instead of amending the entire planting hole. The only rose that I didn't have to cut to several inches was William Baffin. I need to research and grow more Canadian roses!

I was at home Depot again yesterday. I came home with Chicago Peace, a gardenia (to grow inside) and two more baby tomatoes (Celebrity and San Marzano). In our Home Depot, you have to catch newly arrived plants because they don't care for them well. It gives you a chance to see how the blooms age and how the plants endure environmental stress. The plants were either completely dry or waterlogged. The teenager watering them was too busy chatting up his pals to pay attention to watering. I am glad that I didn't buy any other roses Thursday. They made a sharp decline between Thursday and Monday. At least I got a chance to see the aging blooms. I picked the Chicago Peace from a newly stocked shelf in the back of the outdoor plant department. It wasn't in stock long enough for the workers to kill it.

The knockouts were flying into people's carts - especially the yellow one. I was the only one checking out the potted roses. One other rose shopper bought a climbing yellow rose in a body bag. I understand the appeal of the knockouts, but I don't understand how anyone could walk past a display of hybrid teas, floribundas and grandfloras without a passing glance. To be fair, the non knockout rose display is suffering.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 20, 2014 12:06 PM CST
Andi ...

>>>>I don't understand how anyone could walk past a display of hybrid teas, floribundas and grandfloras without a passing glance.

The reason they pass by is that they have probably killed a lot of those roses. Most people do not know how to prepare a stressed rose for planting.

The roses in the big box stores whether or not they have been potted up into containers or bagged are extremely stressed roses, but they can be saved if you treat them differently than the instructions you will find on almost all rose nursery sites and in rose books.

It's all about growing roots first. Those roses are the rejects from the harvest and are not sent to good gardening centers. They were harvested the same way as "good" roses, but in processing they are separated out and their roots are further chopped back to fit the packaging. They don't have good anchor roots and no feeder roots. The top growth is too large to be supported by the root mass they do have and will always look lousy. Even when the top growth looks good, it won't look good for long because the root mass simply cannot support it. Cutting back the top growth and growing roots first is how you save a stressed rose.

Whether you plant the rose into a container or directly into the ground, the goal should be to grow roots first, even with good quality roses. When you water, you only want to water enough to keep the root mass moist because it's easier for the rose to push the small feeder roots through moist soil than through mud.

The rose will grow it's anchor roots to go deeper into the rose hole, but the plant will not take up nutrients from those roots. At the same time, the rose will be growing the feeder roots near the surface of the planting hole. Those new feeder roots are easily burned by any fertilizer, so you just water the plant until you see new top growth. That tells you the root system is working and the plant is putting up that top growth so that it can feed itself with photosynthesis. In roses, the photosynthesis process that provides food for the plant is not fully active until day temps reach 70F, so cutting back the top growth is not going to hurt the plant. The new top growth also tells you that the root system has developed sufficiently for the rose to pull moisture up to the top growth.

Once the rose tells you the root system is working sufficiently to support more top growth, you can start feeding it. I prefer to use chemical foods, highly diluted, at this stage because the nutrients are more readily available to the plants. As the plant gets stronger, using organics is fine as long as you remember it takes time for the soil bacteria to break the organics down into a form the plant can use.

I make sure that my mulch doesn't touch the crown of the plant because moist/wet mulch can cause canker. That's the last thing a stressed rose needs.

It doesn't really matter a whole lot if the roses were over watered or under watered while they were in the big box store ... nature doesn't water on time nor does it always water sparingly. Roses are genetically programmed to survive. What you are seeing as a stressed rose is simply the signs that the root mass cannot support the top growth.

The only roses I have not been able to save are those that have been over watered for a long period of time. Roses found in abandoned homesteads and cemeteries where they did not get supplemental watering are easily saved. Roses naturally go dormant if they do not get the moisture needed to support their growth. They stay in that dormant stage until they get water. Those that have been consistently over watered don't have any feeder roots because they have rotted away.

@Paul2032, Paul, put up a great thread with before and after photos of how a good nursery handles the top grade roses they receive. You will notice that they are "growing roots first".

The thread "Roses in containers at a good Utah Nursery" in Roses forum
Utah-Nursery/

I don't plant anything around a new rose until it is fully established. It's not because roses can't handle root competition, but because I don't want to mess with the new roots the rose is growing. Species roses are forest edge plants. They can handle root competition. I've got a species rose volunteer .. probably a bird drop ... growing in a dense juniper bed up on my slope.

When you remove a rose from a container, the easiest way to get it out with most of the root mass in tact is to use your trowel, a shovel, a hammer ... whatever ... and knock the sides of the container to loosen the root ball from the sides of the container. If you are planting into a large hole, putting a board across the hole and emptying the container onto the board and then tipping the board and sliding the plant into the hole helps you keep the root mass to hold together very well.

In Europe, Jack Harkness recommended planting a bare root rose so that the roots were spread across the planting hole. This gives the plant more root surface to grow feeder roots. The thing is, that today, it is hard to buy bare root roses with the kinds of roots we used to be able to get a couple of decades ago.

It's all about good drainage and growing roots. This is not climate specific.

Most hybrid teas and floribundas are hardy to cold zone 6. It depends on the lineage of the rose. The roses that have more china and tea in their lineage are more "tender" and are not genetically programmed to go sufficiently dormant to survive the colder winters.

@Joannabanana, Joann, wrote an excellent article about protecting modern roses in an even colder zone than yours:

http://garden.org/ideas/view/J...

You are not limited to just Canadian roses.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
Boca Raton, FL (Zone 10b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
May 20, 2014 5:36 PM CST
Thanks for sharing your expertise, Lyn. How much do you cut back the potted big box store roses? Do you cut them back all at once, or a bit at a time? Some people deadhead roses the first year they plant them to concentrate the plant's energy on growth. Do you recommend that? It would take incredible will power!

I read Joannabananna's article, but will read the others as well.

Lyn said "You are not limited to just Canadian roses."

I should have taken a picture of all of my potted roses together. William Baffin has canes 6' tall and as thick as my thumb. The rest are several inches tall. The contrast between the huge William Baffin and the rest is striking.

I have only one other Canadian rose - Jens Munk. He is melancholic and prone to sulking. I am not sure if he survived. He was striking last year before being moved twice. A species rugosa might offer similar blooms on a less fussy plant.

Neither Bill nor Jens have blooms as fragrant or showy as the hybrid teas and floribundas, but they make a nice backdrop for other plants.

Others that are off to a good start setting new canes are Carefree Celebration and Westerland.

One reason that I am tempted by the roses in the stores this year is because it will be a while before mine bloom this year.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 20, 2014 8:50 PM CST
Hi Andi ...

>>>> How much do you cut back the potted big box store roses?

Rule of thumb is that you don't want the top growth to be larger than the root mass. My experience in buying plants other than roses at a big box store is that the plants are potted up in junk so you can shake that soil off of the plant and see the size of the root mass. Since it already has hardly any roots, you are not going to damage the plant more than it already is when you purchased it. In fact, there was a tip on ATP about this. I think there is a thread titled "Shake, shake, shake" on the site.

>>>>Do you cut them back all at once, or a bit at a time?

All at once. Roses abandon growth they cannot support. That is why the roses in the big box stores look lousy within a few days of being put out for sale. Your rose will look like it is just sitting there for a while, but it is busy growing roots. The top growth doesn't provide any benefit to the stressed plant.

>>>>Some people deadhead roses the first year they plant them to concentrate the plant's energy on growth. Do you recommend that?

Absolutely ! By personal experience, I know it is very true.

>>>It would take incredible will power!

It does. See my post about disbudding my whole garden on this thread dated May 17th. It's worth it.

>>>I should have taken a picture of all of my potted roses together. William Baffin has canes 6' tall and as thick as my thumb. The rest are several inches tall. The contrast between the huge William Baffin and the rest is striking.

When I bought this house, I was gifted with 150 bands of roses. I had to pot them up and over winter them outside. I didn't lose one rose. All of them were modern roses of different classes.

Here's a photo of one of those roses:

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/7d63ec

>>>>One reason that I am tempted by the roses in the stores this year is because it will be a while before mine bloom this year.

That's what they are counting on to sell roses with lousy root systems ... Smiling

One of the most important lessons roses teach a gardener is patience. I think the rewards are great.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 20, 2014 11:28 PM CST
I thought I'd share some photos of a few of the roses I am going to be dis-budding. My garden isn't as well groomed as Sue's nor are the photos as good ... Smiling , but here goes:

The house pad level:

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/995c04

'Gourmet Popcorn'

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/02b248

'Lynnie'

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/a825fa

'Sequoia Gold'

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/e156aa

'Silver Cloud'

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/6f5d49

'Splish Splash'

Thumb of 2014-05-21/RoseBlush1/df0a24

That was 'Linda Campbell' in the post above.

I am holding off on my plan to start dis-budding tomorrow because I haven't seen any more curculios and more roses are getting ready to pop.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 21, 2014 8:59 AM CST
Lyn - I absolutely *love* that Silver Cloud. I wish mine was that healthy & bushy.. mine's about 4" tall right now. Literally 4 inches. Had to cut almost 100% of everyone back to the ground, so everyone's starting from scratch this year. Looks like the only ones that I didn't have to trim that far back have been Hansa, Theresa Bugnet, & Crimson Gallica (Rose (Rosa 'Crimson Gallica')). Everyone else has been trimmed, or is going to be trimmed, down to the ground. Again. Depressing.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 21, 2014 11:07 AM CST
Toni ....

What are you using for your winter mulch ? Your roses may be dieing from canker and not from the cold. Maybe we can tweak some of the ways you are taking care of your roses that still allows you to be a lazy gardener and increase your survival rate. After all, you have all of those cat boxes to clean ... Smiling

Silver Cloud is an incredibly weak rose and if any rose in your garden should die, that's the rose that should go toes up every time. It has lousy lineage. It is the seed parent in it's lineage, 'Ellen Poulsen', that gives it any cold hardiness and health. The pollen parent, 'Angel Face' is a dawg in that respect. 'Silver Cloud' is a beautiful rose, but definitely a rose that needs TLC to thrive and certainly not cold hardy. 'Angel Face' with it's horrible lineage dilutes both the health and hardiness of 'Silver Cloud'.

Don't get me wrong, 'Silver Cloud' is one of my favorite roses. I truly love it. It's also one of the first roses to break dormancy in my garden, so I have lots and lots of photos because nothing else was blooming.

It is susceptible to the strain of blackspot I have in my garden, but refoliates well before the heat hits.

Since I know it needs extra care to thrive, I treat it differently than my other roses. I have a few prima donnas, but only a few. I'd hate to have a whole garden full of them.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 21, 2014 12:56 PM CST
Lyn - Try having 2-3 weeks of -15 to 20 deg weather every single January, not including windchill. Trust me, it's winterkill, not canker. Even Austrian Copper, who has NO mulch, has winterkill and that's supposed to be one of the hardiest roses for my area. The wild roses that grow native to CO die to the ground every year as well, so my situation isn't unusual. I usually use Western cedar for mulch if I can afford it, but getting 30 cubic yards at $41/CY is pretty expensive.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
Lilies Irises Daylilies Dog Lover Beekeeper Garden Ideas: Master Level
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CindiKS
May 21, 2014 3:05 PM CST
Beautiful roses, Lyn! I love the shades of yellow on Sequoia Gold, and the pink yellow blend on Splish Splash. It didn't surprise me to read that Sequoia Gold is a parent of Splish Splash.
My Linda Campbell is in full bloom today, and it looks better than ever before. Cold winters do not bother that rose one bit.
Another one that seems to thrive no matter what is Cape Diamond.

Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 21, 2014 3:24 PM CST
Toni ....

>>>Lyn - Try having 2-3 weeks of -15 to 20 deg weather every single January, not including windchill. Trust me, it's winterkill, not canker. Even Austrian Copper, who has NO mulch, has winterkill and that's supposed to be one of the hardiest roses for my area. The wild roses that grow native to CO die to the ground every year as well, so my situation isn't unusual. I usually use Western cedar for mulch if I can afford it, but getting 30 cubic yards at $41/CY is pretty expensive.

I do believe you. I was just hoping we could tweak something so that your roses have a better chance of survival because you love them so much.

Cindi ...

Thanks. The roses are just starting to pop, so I don't have photos of a lot of them. Usually the curculios don't find the garden until the last week of May. Since I haven't seen more, I may have more photos before I have to disbud the garden.

'Linda Campbell' is a great rose almost in any climate. It's a cross between a rugosa and a mini. It can take all kinds of neglect and keep on coming on strongly.

I am so glad I increased the size of the deer cage so that it could grow bigger. With all of the vinca foliage on the slope behind the rose, it's hard to get a photo that shows how impressive the plant is in that location. It's eye-popping in real life.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
May 21, 2014 4:10 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:
I am so glad I increased the size of the deer cage so that it could grow bigger. With all of the vinca foliage on the slope behind the rose, it's hard to get a photo that shows how impressive the plant is in that location. It's eye-popping in real life.


I'm glad I'm not the only one with vinca problems! I planted mine years ago, but this spring it's been a weed, popping up EVERYWHERE! I just wish it could choke out the bindweed!!!
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 21, 2014 5:32 PM CST
Toni ...

I like the vinca on that slope. It's holding the slope in place. However, it has crossed over the top of the slope and is now growing under my dogwood tree. I'll get it out of there because that's the only place I can have a shade garden.

Last year was a gardening bust for me due to health issues, so I am playing catch-up. That's how the vinca got away from me.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
RoseBlush1
May 24, 2014 12:47 AM CST
The curculios have found my garden ... Crying

I've dis-budded about a third of the roses on the house pad level. Maybe when I get all of them dis-budded, I can get some weeding done.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
Image
Skiekitty
May 24, 2014 1:24 PM CST
This display at one of my local depots surely put my self restraint to the utmost test.

Thumb of 2014-05-24/Skiekitty/2ed3cf
Thumb of 2014-05-24/Skiekitty/70208d

Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
May 24, 2014 3:42 PM CST
If that is Home Depot, your HD is a lot better than ours! Who are they?
Porkpal

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