Lilies forum: tet Black Beauty

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silverlake
Jul 26, 2014 6:36 PM CST
A couple of questions about Black Beauty. I believe it is the dip form that is sterile and the tet that is fertile. If that is right, is it fertile as pollen...or ovary? How can I tell if what I already have is the tet or diploid form? Is there a source for the tet bulbs?
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jul 26, 2014 7:01 PM CST

Moderator

The diploid form is the one that is commonly available. The only commercial source that I know of is S-W Gardens in Canada. It is not cheap-- $15 Canadian! So you would probably know if you had it.

From what I know (have read) the tetraploid form is more pollen fertile than pod fertile.
Name: Brian
Ontario Canada (Zone 5b)
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bearsearch
Jul 27, 2014 2:21 AM CST
SW could be out of them for a while. I could only get one from them and was told it was the last for some time. They are propagating their stock but may not have bulbs again for a while.

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silverlake
Jul 27, 2014 6:21 AM CST
That info is helpful. Is there a way to tell visually or characteristically if the Black Beauty you already have is diploid or tetraploid? I'm told by some that the tet version and dip forms have been reproduced without discrimination in the commercial realm.
[Last edited by silverlake - Jul 28, 2014 4:36 PM (+)]
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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jul 27, 2014 6:41 AM CST
I was told that the tetra form has visually larger flowers.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jul 27, 2014 11:08 AM CST

Moderator

I grow both and the tetraploid is indeed larger but apparently not in length of the tepals. I just went out and measured lengths and widths on a couple of inner tepals on both and found the lengths to be essentially the same but the width at the widest points are a good centimeter more on the tet form (22mm vs 33mm). The tets also have quite a bit more substance to the tepals and a sturdier stem. My regular BBs tend to flop and lean on adjacent lilies.

Name: Brian
Ontario Canada (Zone 5b)
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bearsearch
Jul 27, 2014 11:36 AM CST
My tet. BB is still too small to make comparisons. It was a very small bulb when I got it, no flowers the first year, only one flower this year still a long way from opening. The only comparison that I can make at this point is the Tet. has more substance to the leaves, they are no larger at this point but they feel thicker and sturdier.
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jul 27, 2014 7:49 PM CST
silverlake said:I'm told by some that the tet version and dip forms have been reproduced without discrimination in the co.medical realm.


I don't have a clue what this means. :confused:
If it's a typo, I'm still not gettin' it.


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silverlake
Jul 28, 2014 3:55 PM CST
Sorry. Typo on my phone. I meant commercial realm.
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Jul 28, 2014 4:28 PM CST
Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

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BUGGYCRAZY
Jul 28, 2014 7:45 PM CST
I had the 4n form for years, never got it to pollinate anything. now that there are more OT hybrids available you may have better luck. It was indeed larger, thicker and sturdier than the poor excuse of a BB I have now.

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silverlake
Jul 30, 2014 8:27 AM CST
But that is exactly it. My Black Beauties are six and seven foot tall....heavy stems...divide readily....healthy leaves......two foot of closely tiered bloom on the top that flowers for a good month. They were bought as generic Black Beautys from mail order. That is why I'm asking the questions.

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BUGGYCRAZY
Jul 30, 2014 12:15 PM CST
Well my poor excuse of a BB in in a very poor excuse of a climate and not in a good spot at that. I plan to move it out to full sun next year and to use an impact sprinkler on everything so the stems develop stronger. There is no breeze here, just hot, hotter and record hot and no breeze, when there is a bit of wind or drop of rain everything falls down since the plants have developed with weak stems. Any bit of a windstorm or puts the power out for days or weeks (in town!!!!!) unbelievable they cannot deal with it here in the big city!!!!!!!
But I digress.

It was my understanding the 4n were induced with colchicine and that made them 4n and more fertile, but I have not heard how stable that is in the long-term. For instance many variegated plants revert back to the normal non variegated type under good growing conditions. Now that I am in a foul place to grow anything my variegated plants are staying that way for once. In propagation the new buds formed under favorable and fast conditions may revert.
I have also heard that since the induced tetraploids are poisoned to make them that way they grow slower (my old ones didn't seem to be any slower).
So I guess you will have to wait-or get a microscope and see if there is a stomate size difference. That was another way to tell and I cannot remember which is bigger (4n I think) since microscope work was NOT my favorite and I refused to do it on my own time, bad enough to do it for pay. And counting chromosomes was very tedious work. Now I can no longer see well enough for anything like that.

I think that information was back in the 90's in the NALS yearbooks.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Jul 30, 2014 12:34 PM CST

Moderator

I grow both so will take a look for any significant difference. The only other thing I can suggest is testing the pollen on OT lilies but you have to be careful and follow protocol to prevent other pollen from messing up your results. That is to say, foil cap before and after pollination with your BB pollen.

Just my experience here, my tetraploid lilies don't seem to grow any taller than the other lilies. They just have heavier substance both petals and leaves. Especially true of the Ed McRae tet trumpets I have grown.

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BUGGYCRAZY
Aug 1, 2014 7:31 PM CST
yes but it you get nothing it doesn't really mean anything since polyploids are difficult to cross. And it you have never ending hell on earth heat even the easiest crosses may fail (my story this year)

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silverlake
Aug 3, 2014 7:06 PM CST
OK.
I read the thread about the difference between Casablanca and White Stargazer. I have had Black Beauty blooming now for better than two weeks. Yesterday a group planted at another time in a different place began to bloom. I know they were bought separately. The second blooms are so much larger...and the white edge is much more prominent. Could it be that the second ones are Schnezerade? What is the visual difference in the two?
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Aug 3, 2014 7:31 PM CST

Moderator

Scheherazade left, Black Beauty right. The edge on Scheherazade can vary in color depending on temperature, here this one has more of a yellow edge and you can see it is a lot bigger than Black Beauty. Note that the petals on Black Beauty roll back into a form more like a ball and just the petal tips roll back on Scheherazade making it more of a flat-faced lily. Can you post a photo of your bigger lily? A wider white band might mean a different lily altogether.

Thumb of 2014-08-04/pardalinum/f3e1d3


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silverlake
Aug 6, 2014 1:42 PM CST
Sorry to disappear for a couple of days. I had surgery. After seeing the photos I know mine are all Black Beauty. I now want to get the Schnezerades also. I'd also like to see the larger flower.
Name: Roxanne Moskal
Near Pittsburgh, PA (Zone 6a)
Tropicals
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roxxanne
Aug 24, 2014 2:08 PM CST
Does anyone know if Black Beauties are self fertile? I messed around and sprinkled pollen from my stargazers and an orienpet lily on my blk beauties and I have nice pods growing but I really didn't think that either of those would actually work, so I was thinking that maybe they self pollinated. Any ideas????
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Aug 24, 2014 4:51 PM CST
It's not that uncommon for Black Beauty to produce what looks like a good, full seed pod. But generally, there is zippo for viable seed - it's all chaff. It never hurts to plant it all though, you never know..... Seedlings have been grown through embryo rescue.

After all, no one believed Leslie Woodriff when he claimed that Black Beauty was an L. speciosum x L. henryi cross. But later DNA and cytosplasm studies proved he was telling the truth.

Black Beauty is certainly self infertile. It cannot pollinate itself. Pods are (sometimes) produced when pollinated by other oriental or aurelian lilies.

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