Roses forum: New home and new gardens!

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Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover Bookworm I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover
Plays in the sandbox Butterflies Region: Texas Garden Sages I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member
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lovemyhouse
Aug 23, 2014 6:58 AM CST
Terri, Heritage (David Austin) does well for me. Gets afternoon shade and little supplemental water, but keeps going and going.

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It’s okay to not know all the answers.
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, NY (Zone 6b)
Seed Starter Container Gardener Roses Bulbs I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Peonies
Clematis Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Region: New York
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Mike
Aug 23, 2014 7:47 AM CST
Teri,

Here's the article and related post that I wrote back in 2004.

Shade Tolerant Roses

When it comes to growing roses, the natural environment of my Hudson Valley home is both a blessing and a curse. The front yard’s southern exposure floods the lawn with sunlight that roses would normally thrive in. Unfortunately, it is also frequented by deer, whose appetite for roses force me to grow my plants in the safety of the back yard.

Its fenced border provides an effective barrier against unwelcome visitors, and the surrounding arborvitae provide an evergreen background for colorful blooms. But the trees’ long shadows create a lot of shade. The yard’s limited number of sunlit patches have already been filled to the limit with a combination of floribundas, grandifloras, shrubs and minis; but like many rose lovers, I can’t seem to get enough! There are always one or two (or 19) more roses I’d like to introduce to the garden – but where?

As I pondered my dilemma during last fall’s pre-order season, I took notice of the occasional mention of “shade-tolerant” roses in various catalogs, and thought this might be the answer to my appetite for more rose blooms. So I made a winter project of researching the plants that the growers promote as needing less than six hours of sunlight per day. That’s not to say they can grow in the dark; they still need sunshine to thrive and bloom, but not as much as most other roses.

It turns out that the list I accumulated from various catalogs, garden guides, and databases was longer than expected. It includes 235 roses among 23 classifications. In the interest of helping other gardeners confronted with dappled or partial shade, I’ve listed the roses here by classification.

Alba (6): Celeste, Felicite Parmentier, Maxima, Mme Plantier, Morning Blush, Suaveolens

Bourbon (11): Barbara Worl, Bourbon Queen, Champion of the World, Charles Lawson, Hermosa, Honorine de Brabant, Louise Odier, Mme Isaac Pereire, Sophie’s Perpetual, Souvenir de la Malmaison, Souvenir de St. Anne’s

Centifolia (6): Alain Blanchard, Bullata, Duc de Fitzjames, Duchesse d’Angouleme, Fantin-Latour, York and Lancaster

China (11): Cardinal de Richelieu, Comtesse de Lacepede, Duchese de Montebello, Green Rose, Hermosa, Irene Watts, Louis XIV, Mateo’s Silk Butterflies, Mme Laurette Messimy, Old Blush, Sophie’s Perpetual

Climber (11): Altissimo, Blaze, Coral Dawn, Floire de Dijon, Fourth of July, Fred Loads Mermaid, Kiftsgate, Mlle Cecile Brunner, New Dawn, Sombreuil, Zephirine Drouhin

Damask (5): Celsiana, La Ville de Bruxelles, Madame Hardy, President Dutailly, Rose d’Hivers

English Rose (11): Abraham Darby, Ambridge, Charles Rennie Mackintosh, Chianti, English Garden, Glamis Castle, Golden Celbration, Heritage Sharifa, Swan, The Alexander Rose, The Prince

Floribunda (16): Amber Queen, Angel Face, Betty Boop, Betty Prior, Blueberry Hill, Dolly, Gruss an Aachen, Ivory Fashion, Joseph’s Coat, Flower Carpet, Fred Loads, Livin’ Easy, Marmalade Skies, Playboy, Playgirl, Sweet Vivian

Gallica Rose (86): Apothecary’s Rose, Rosa Mundi, Tuscany, Jenny Duval, William Grant, Complilcata, Adele Prevost, Empress Josephine, Agathe Incarnata, Alexandre Laquement, Ambroise Pare, Antonia d’Ormois, Assemblage des Beautes, Beau Narcisse, Belle des Jardins, Belle Doria, Belle Herminie, Belle Isis, Belle sans Flatterie, Bossuet, Boule de Nanteuil, Bouquet de Venus, Camaieux, Camaieux Reversion, Charles de Mills, Comte Boula de Nanteuil, Cosimo Ridolfi, Cramoisi Picotee, Crimson Gallica, D’Aguesseau, Desiree Parmentier, Double Brique, Duc de Fitzjames, Duc de Guiche, Duchesse d’Angouleme, Duchesse de Buccleugh, Dumortier, Elegant Gallica, Ester, Fanny Elssler, Fornarina, Gloire de Grance, Gros Provins Panache, Henri Fouquier, Hippolyte, Ipsilante, James Mason, Juliette, La Belle Sultane, La Maculee, La Plus Belle des Ponctuees, L’Enchantresse, Mazeppa Mecene, Mercedes, Nanette, Narcisse de Salvandy, Neron, Nestor, Nouveau Vulcain, Nouvelle Pivoine, Oeillet Double, Oeillet Flamand, Oellet Parfait, Ohl, Ombree Parfaite, Ancienne, Orpheline de Julliet, Perle des Panachees, Perle von Weissenstein, Pompom, President de Seze, Purple Climber, Rose des Maures, Rose du Maitre d’Ecole, Pluton, Royal Marbree, Ruth, Scarlet Fire, Supasse Tout, Tricolore, Tricolore de Flandre, Triomphe de Flore, Turenne, Superb Tuscan, Veluntinaeflora, Zoe

Hybrid Musk (21): Ballerina, Buff Beauty, Cornelia, Danae, Darlow’s Enigma, Erfurt, Eva, Felicia, Francesca, Francis E. Lester, Kathleen, Lavender Lassie, Moonlight, Mozart, Nymphenburg, Pax, Pink Prosperity, Prosperity, Ravel, Robin Hood, Sally Holmes, Thisbe Vanity

Hybrid Perpetual (2): Rerine des Violette, Souvenir du Dr. Jamain

Hybrid Rugosa (2): Blanc Double de Coubert, Therese Bugnet

Hybrid Tea (2): Kordes’ Perfecta, Reveil Dijonnais (also a modern climber)

Miniature (1): Green Ice

Moss (2): Alfred de Dalmas, Shailer’s White Moss

Noisette (6): Blush Noisette, Juane Desprez, Madame Alfred Carriere, Marechal Niel, Narrow Water, Natchitoches Noisette

Other Old Garden / Antique (2): Eugene de Beauharnais, Reine des Violettes

Polyantha (4): The Fairy, Marjoire Fair, Pinkie, Seven Sisters

Portland (1): Rose de Rescht

Rambler (1): Alberic Barbier

Rugosa: Many varieties

Shrub (10): Abbotswood, Banshee, Basye’s Purple Rose, Carefree Beauty, Carefree Delight, Carefree Wonder, Flutterbye, Dortmund, Fritz Nobis, Knockout

Species (12): Alika, Anemone, Arthur Hillier, Eglantine, Headleyensis, Mme de Sancy de Parabere, Pumila, Red-leaved Rose, Red Wing, Rosa Mundi, Ramona, William III

Tea (1): Duchesse de Brabant
[Last edited by Mike - Aug 23, 2014 7:18 PM (+)]
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Name: Terri
Lucketts, VA (Zone 7a)
Region: Mid-Atlantic Region: Virginia Dog Lover Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Deer Ponds
Foliage Fan Ferns Hellebores Irises Peonies Amaryllis
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aspenhill
Aug 23, 2014 9:32 AM CST
Wow, what a list! I know where my reading and research will be heading as summer winds down. And the fun begins. Thanks.

My one and only rose to date - A polyantha 'Mrs. R.M. Finch':
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Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
Aug 23, 2014 2:23 PM CST
Cindi - HAHAHA!! On skittles explosion!! Much better than what one of my coworkers said.. He said that it looked like a 64box of Crayola crayons threw up in my yard.. And I'd have to say that he's right. In the midst of a second (& final) flush for the year & my yard is a definite riot of colors this year with the mondarta & agastaches going crazy...
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover Bookworm I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover
Plays in the sandbox Butterflies Region: Texas Garden Sages I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member
Image
lovemyhouse
Aug 23, 2014 2:58 PM CST
My best friend works for Mars, so I especially like the Skittles. But the Crayola reference is colorful, too. Big Grin
It’s okay to not know all the answers.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
Aug 23, 2014 3:55 PM CST
Here's 2 bad pics of my Crayola vomit...

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Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 23, 2014 4:06 PM CST
@aspenhill, Teri ...

The list of roses that will do in partial shade and which will climb trees reaching for the light is much longer than Mike's list.

Species roses are forest edge plants. They often grow in shadier conditions than what we have been taught is necessary for a rose to be a vigorous plant. The roses that are the best in shadier conditions have fewer petals and are generally light colored with thinner petal substance. Of course, there are exceptions because everything depends on the rose. Roses with a lot of petals generally have a lanky growth and fewer blooms because the plant is putting its energy in reaching for more light and sacrificing bloom to meet that one vital need. If those same roses were sited where they get more sun, they are more successful garden plants.

I haven't researched Mike's list, but the way to find the best roses is to find the common characteristics of these roses and go from there. There will always be differences in your success depending on your climate, soil and the roses themselves.

I have a friend who told me that she couldn't grow roses in her oak forest. In the areas where there is more dappled shade, she is now growing 10 roses up into those trees and now has several shrub roses growing in the same area.

I love hearing the "I can't phrase" because it is possible to find roses that work well in less than ideal conditions. When a rose is "happy" it is like growing weeds and many roses are quite happy with less than the ideal 6 hours of sunlight recommended. Since roses can't read, they don't know there are rules to be followed.

Training roses to grow into trees is really quite simple. If you are interested we can start another thread.

@Mike

A couple of thoughts .... I'd probably pass on 'Paloma Blanca' from RU. I've grown the rose in two different climates and it has been a dud in both climates. Griffith Buck used to bud all of his viable seedling for testing. My sense of this rose is that it needs the additional vigor of a stronger root stock.

I've also found that whenever I have purchased bands from any nursery, I end up with a much stronger and more vigorous plant if I grow it up to a 3 gal size for the root mass. In my experience and my lousy soil, when I have a strong root mass, the rose can withstand more stress than when I plant it earlier. I've tested this theory with a few roses in my current garden and the roses planted out with the smaller root mass at the same time have never caught up with the roses with the larger root mass with the same care. Just something to think about.

My favorite rugosa is not a true rugosa but a cross between a miniature rose and a rugosa, 'Linda Campbell'. I planted it in one of the street beds and it has required very little care. It has now grown large enough that you can see it from Main Street down below where I live. I have people driving up just to look at that one rose. Nothing seems to bother it, so it keeps getting bigger and bigger and truly makes a statement.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 23, 2014 4:11 PM CST

Moderator

I think Mike grew an own-root Paloma Blanca successfully for years, and I have an own-root Paloma Blanca that's growing quite well, so you may have received duds, Lyn.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 23, 2014 4:15 PM CST
Zuzu ...

You may be right. I liked the rose a lot, but it sure did not do well for me in either climate, even with a LOT of TLC.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, NY (Zone 6b)
Seed Starter Container Gardener Roses Bulbs I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Peonies
Clematis Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Region: New York
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Mike
Aug 23, 2014 7:07 PM CST
Teri, I'm glad you found that list helpful; I remember having fun researching all sorts of catalogs and website to assemble it as a resource. There is a data table I created on the characteristics of each of the roses in the list. Although it wasn't included in the article that American Rose Magazine printed, it was mentioned in the article. So for months thereafter I received emails from other ARS members, asking for a copy of the full list and data table. To make it easier to respond, I finally created a little website and published it there, so that I could just send people the link, rather than attaching a downloadable Excel file. The website was retired when I changed Internet Service Providers long ago, and I haven't even thought about it in years, until this week. But I just checked the Way Back Machine website, and sure enough it was archived in 2004, so you can still view it here: http://web.archive.org/web/200...

Lyn, that's too bad you didn't have success with Paloma Blanca. Mine has always produced profuse blooms on a vigorous, healthy plant, and I got it from RU. In fact, I remember chatting with Pat on the phone about it way back when I first purchased it from her. My second name for it is the "Ice Cream Rose," because its swirled petals sometimes looks like SoftServ, or the imprinted patterns left by the peel-off lids on those little cups of ice cream we ate as snacks in kindergarten.

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[Last edited by Mike - Aug 23, 2014 7:26 PM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 23, 2014 7:51 PM CST
Mike ....

I am pretty certain I didn't have enough chill hours for the rose when I was growing it down south. I was surprised the new plant hasn't thrived in this garden. I like it's lineage and thought it would be a good rose in this climate.

It's good to know it can grow own root. I may give it another try with a different plant.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, NY (Zone 6b)
Seed Starter Container Gardener Roses Bulbs I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Peonies
Clematis Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Region: New York
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Mike
Aug 24, 2014 7:41 PM CST
Zuzu, I'm so glad your PB is doing well. I remember when you decided you wanted to add it to your incredible garden. Where did you get yours? I got mine from RU, but I thought it was grafted. Since it was one of the ones that didn't survive the winter, I can't check it for a bud union.

I hope you weren't directly impacted by the temblors this weekend. Wishing you and everyone in that part of California a safe return to normalcy as soon as possible.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 24, 2014 8:17 PM CST

Moderator

RU doesn't sell grafted roses, Mike. Only own-root.

I thought you had bought yours from Heirloom, and although it's one of my least favorite nurseries, your gorgeous photos prevailed over my dislike for Heirloom and I bought it. Luckily, it's one of my few Heirloom roses that grew to more than 12 inches tall and one of the few that wasn't mislabeled. Heirloom stayed true to form, however, because two of the other roses in that order of four were mislabeled, thereby maintaining the nursery's 50% accuracy rate.

The earthquake was fairly scary here, but there was no physical damage. It started with a huge jolt, as if the house was being torn off its foundation, and that was followed by 10 or 15 seconds of rolling and pitching. I almost got seasick. Big Grin That earth-rolling motion caused some of my cabinet doors to swing open and shut several times, but nothing fell out of the cabinets and nothing's broken.

Chippendale, who was sleeping on my bed at the time, has been sleeping on the floor all day today. I think she blames the bed!
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
Service dogs: Angels with paws.
Dragonflies Dog Lover Bookworm I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Photography Bee Lover
Plays in the sandbox Butterflies Region: Texas Garden Sages I sent a postcard to Randy! Charter ATP Member
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lovemyhouse
Aug 24, 2014 8:19 PM CST
Hilarious! Hilarious!
It’s okay to not know all the answers.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 24, 2014 8:20 PM CST
Zuzu.....

Now that Heirloom is under new ownership, I've heard both their product, labeling, customer service and packaging has greatly improved.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Aug 24, 2014 8:26 PM CST

Moderator

That's good to hear, and somewhat predictable: It would be almost impossible for those things to get worse. Big Grin

If they ever carry anything irresistible, I might take the chance, but I'm really determined to waste no more money on own-root roses. I wish I could replace all of mine with grafted roses.
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, NY (Zone 6b)
Seed Starter Container Gardener Roses Bulbs I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Peonies
Clematis Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Region: New York
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Mike
Aug 25, 2014 7:14 AM CST
It's been so long since I have ordered roses from RU that I had forgotten they only sold own-root plants. Pat emailed to say they'll have it next spring.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
Aug 25, 2014 9:26 AM CST
Zu - hehehe, if you ever need a home for any own-root, keep me in mind.. I prefer own root over grafted any day as so many of my grafted the graft part dies & I'm stuck w/another Dr. Huey!
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
zuzu
Aug 25, 2014 1:04 PM CST

Moderator

Toni, if the own-roots I'll be discarding were worth the time and effort of carefully digging them up, preparing them for shipping, and actually shipping them, I'd send them to you, but my targets are the own-root hybrid teas that have been growing here for at least 7 or 8 years and are still tiny one-cane wonders. They've taken lots of TLC to keep alive for this long, but most produce only one or two blooms a year, and some have never bloomed yet. Life's too short to waste any more time and energy on these. Smiling
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Aug 25, 2014 1:25 PM CST
Zuzu ....

Star roses is listing a lot of the old HTs to be distributed this year and they appear to be own root plants. On their site they say they have been tested to see if they can grow well own root. Not all of the old roses had to be budded, but they were never tested as own root.

That isn't true for Heirloom, RVR, High Country Gardens, etc. that are selling bands.

Weeks is also distributing a lot of the older roses as own root roses. I know Tom Carruth had started a testing program before he retired.

I'm learning how to bud my own roses, but I don't have enough room to grow a lot of root stock. So far, so good. The four roses I tried this year have all taken and I am starting to grow more root stock in containers. I am just playing around to see if I can do it because I really don't have room for many more roses.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

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