Plant Database forum: multiple-plant-specific databases

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JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 20, 2014 8:25 PM CST
i do a search on a database for a plant - and i don't find it. then i do a proposal - and it get's rejected because it exists in a specific database!
and apparently there's a lot of those ! so how am i supposed to know, when they don't show up, unless i submit a proposal?
is there a list of various plant-specific databases? it happened already like 3-4 times. i am getting frustrated....
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Aug 20, 2014 8:45 PM CST

Plants Admin

The plants in the plant-specific databases are just as accessible as any others when you search for them. You're probably typing too much in the search box. In the latest case I remember of your proposed new plant being in the database already, you added lots of species information, including the cross used for the hybrid. If you had searched for just the genus and cultivar name (euphorbia pick me pink) , you would have found the entry.

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=euphorbia+pick+me...
JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 20, 2014 8:46 PM CST
sorry, i see a list of specific databases on top.
i assumed that when i put a plants name - it will go check everywhere. but that's not the case. is it possible to at least display a message 'sep database exists'?
so that i can continue checking myself - i don't want to create extra work with my redundant proposals...sigh
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Aug 20, 2014 8:54 PM CST

Plants Admin

But the search does check everywhere. If you had searched only for the cultivar name, you'd get these results:

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=pick+me+pink&subm...

The results are from various parts of the database, including some of the sections you call specific.

Those custom databases aren't really separate from the main database. They're simply a convenience for people staying within those genera, and many of the custom databases have custom information fields that aren't present in the database as a whole (name of hybridizer, year of introduction, etc.).
JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 20, 2014 8:54 PM CST
well, in my case i typed poinsettia ...waited ..saw a 'complete' list , went thru it - sev pages ...nothing there.
tried 'euphorbia pulcherrima'...paged thru all pages - nothing.
i tried sev variations, believe me. i couldn't believe it wasn't there, since it is a know variety by now.
smth is not working in quiries correctly - i am a software developer, i know how quieries work.
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Aug 20, 2014 8:59 PM CST

Plants Admin

This particular entry is not identified as a poinsettia and the species pulcherrima is not included in the name, so both of those searches would have been fruitless. You would have found it if you had looked for the genus and cultivar, or just the cultivar.

Euphorbia (Euphorbia 'Pick Me Pink')
JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 20, 2014 9:05 PM CST
i guess it didn't occur to me to just type a cultivar name since a lot of them are common to many species.
it did save what i typed: poinsettia 'pink me pink' and then 'euphorbia' and also 'euphorbia pulcherrima'.
so, may be it cannot marry common name with variety - i can accept that, but the other two should've picked it up, and they didn't.
same happened with my other searches, on aglaonemas, on coleus...on musa too. it's not just one case - it's for all 'special' databases : on proposal it displays a msg: that a database exists. if it displayed a msg like that based on species name 'in main section' that would alert me to go look elsewhere at least. i can check myself, i am not trying to create extra work for anybody, sorry.

JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 20, 2014 9:09 PM CST
well, it's funny that it's not IDed as a poinsettia, since it IS a poinsettia.
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
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KentPfeiffer
Aug 20, 2014 9:19 PM CST

Plants Admin

As zuzu says, the search engine does check the entire database. However, it tries to find an entry that contains every word you type in the search box. In other words, if you type in "Euphorbia Pick Me Pink poinsettia", it looks for an entry that contains the words Euphorbia AND Pick AND Me AND Pink AND poinsettia. Since poinsettia isn't listed as one of the names of the plant, you get no results.

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=euphorbia+pick+me...

On the other hand, if you just searched for "Euphorbia Pick Me Pink", you would have easily found it.

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=euphorbia+pick+me...
Name: Zuzu
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zuzu
Aug 20, 2014 9:30 PM CST

Plants Admin

Here's another way you could have found it. This might be easier.

Search for euphorbia. You'll arrive at this page:

http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=euphorbia&button=

Click on the link to view all plants in the genus. You'll arrive at this page:

http://garden.org/plants/browse/plants/genus/euphorbia/

Click on "P" at the top of the page (because your cultivar name begins with "P"). You'll arrive at an alphabetical listing of every Euphorbia cultivar beginning with the letter "P," including Pick Me Pink:

http://garden.org/plants/browse/plants/genus/Euphorbia/?q=P

As for the absence of the species name and of Poinsettia as a common name, this is a comparatively young database and it's a group effort. No one has added Poinsettia as one of the common names of this plant, but you can do that by submitting a proposal to edit the plant name. Ordinarily, you could also add the species name to the entry by submitting a proposal to edit the plant name, but 'Pick Me Pink' is a hybrid of E. pulcherrima and another species, so this would be wrong in this case.
Name: Lin
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plantladylin
Aug 20, 2014 9:36 PM CST
I submitted a proposal to add Poinsettia as the common name. After the name approval, will it be found when someone searches for Poinsettia Pick Me Pink?
~ Eat, Sleep .... Play in the dirt ~
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Aug 20, 2014 9:43 PM CST

Plants Admin

Yes, it will. Thanks, Lin.

Incidentally, some sources object to calling this cultivar a poinsettia because it's a hybrid, but I suspect they're being too nitpicky. Smiling
JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 21, 2014 9:18 AM CST
i understand about nitpicking of hybrid names, but it is marketed as a poinsettia on many sites. and it does look like a poinsettia, and not like a bunch of other euphorbias. and granted lots of common names are not correct, but they are still used.
same happened with my musa 'aeae' . other sites list it as musa paradisiaca or musa x paradisiaca. and i saw an argument about it too :). and still all my permutations did not pull it up.
zuzu,
in your above example - the 1st link for 'euphorbia' - what is the sequencing? that's where i believe i did not find it - in all of 50 pages ( i paged, i did).
i assumed that this list is a complete list (i see now that the other list is double the size!). so, what's the difference between two besides alpha sequencing ?
from my layman's point of view it's useless, i can't find anything in it, it's all mixed-up. so why is it set-up as 'the first choice' then? how would you use it?
i know i need to learn more about correct botanical naming, just need some crutches before i get there ;).
and why is it that for some hybrids names indicate 'x hybrid', but for this one it's not correct to use 'x pulcherrima'? or 'x paradisiaca'?
also i just paged thru 'genus' listing - and i can't find 'euphorbia 'pick me pink' there either.... where i expected it. it was at end again in some strange common name mixed up with other names ..on p 123. yes, next time i will just press P on top. but this course of action is not apparent to me.
perhaps, some kind of 'database search primer with examples' is in order? some guidance for laymen? it is a pop-site after all.
i thought i knew enough at least to be able to find it in the database without going thru the 'search manual', but it ain't so!
may be some sort of 'botanical names guide' forum can help?

Name: Evan
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eclayne
Aug 21, 2014 10:30 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hi skylark,

Looking for plants:
Searching: Using the search bar is like doing a google search with all that inherent randomness included.
As was noted, Poinsettia didn't yield results because the Common name hadn't yet been added. Plantladylin resolved that with her proposal.

Browsing: is a much more targeted method of finding a plant. You should take advantage of it.
There are several ways to browse the database. To browse you must get to the browse by Genus page or a Custom Database/Parent Plant page.

Here are examples of a few ways (there are others).
ex. Here I searched Musa. http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=musa&button=
-select Click here to view all plants in the genus: musa and you get the complete list. http://garden.org/plants/browse/plants/genus/musa/
-As previously described select a letter to find a specific cultivar. Again, here are the cultivars beginning with A. http://garden.org/plants/browse/plants/genus/Musa/?q=A

As an aside Musa x paradisiaca and Aeae have been included as Also sold as names in this entry. These are widely used names which are usually incorrect or not substantiated by an authoritative source. Including Also sold as names is very useful in finding a plant.
I believe the reason 'Ae Ae' doesn't show up in a search is because it is less than 3 (consecutive) letters long.


Selecting a Custom Database from the list on the database homepage is what I often do. Be aware that most plants don't yet have a Custom Database.
-Select Bananas for The Bananas Database and Browse the full list of bananas to get to Viewing all plants under Bananas

Browsing is a very powerful targeted way to find a plant. Give it a try.
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Aug 21, 2014 10:34 AM (+)]
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Name: Deb
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Bonehead
Aug 21, 2014 10:43 AM CST
Skylark, I usually just start with the cultivar name or even a part of it if I'm not certain of the spelling. In your example, I searched for 'pick me pink' and your euphorbia was first in the list, followed by some other plants with similar names. I only use the latin name as a search if I am flumoxed otherwise, as often the spelling gets tweaked by the powers-that-be (not those on ATP but whoever makes decisions in the botanical world). I also find it rather interesting to see what other plants might share the cultivar name.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 21, 2014 11:26 AM CST
i guess, i was just over-thinking it - the obvious 'pick me pink' search just totally eluded me. i can google search a needle in a stack usually, so that's why i got flummoxed a bit ;).
i pounced on a search bar instead of actually looking at other things - and missed specialty databases staring me in a face :).
but still, if we take 'musa' as example - why do i have a different number of entries on the first screen vs 'all plants in the genus' list?
i see it's picking up totally unrelated entries like 'musaefolia' even if i put "musa " for exact search.
and also Hemerocallis 'Vermusae' - which really it shouldn't!
i can see now that genus-list + pick-cultivar-letter would be the fastest and most accurate search.
thanks for all clarifications.
Name: Evan
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eclayne
Aug 21, 2014 11:40 AM CST

Plants Admin

A search picks out letters, hence 'Vermusae', ...

Get used to the browse and I guarantee you'll never go back! Green Grin!

P.S. Musa × paradisiaca 'Ae Ae' IS correct!! Thanks for bringing this up.
Evan
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Paul2032
Aug 21, 2014 12:48 PM CST
I am lazy. If I have a problem with something I contact Evan or ZuZu. When possible I send them a picture of the label. They are always very helpful.
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RickCorey
Aug 21, 2014 12:56 PM CST
You guys are WAY ahead of me, but here is something I noticed.

When I open the Lettuces Database and do a search using the search dialog in the middle of the page,
not the one in the far-left column, only the Lettuces Database is searched.

In this website, most of the search dialogs are context sensitive: they search only the subset of the website that corresponds to the location of the search dialog. I think the following is accurate.

The search dialog in the middle of the Lettuces Database front page searches only the the Lettuces Database. (That makes a cultivar-name-only search practical).

The search dialogs in the far-left column of Plant Database pages search the whole Plant Database.

The search dialog in the Tree-Mail area searches your Tree Mail.

The search dialog in the ATP Home Page searches the whole site.

JC/NYC (Zone 7b)
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skylark
Aug 21, 2014 2:56 PM CST
by std convention of search, though, if you put the word in double quotes, it should search for exact match only. so if i ask for "musa" it should not give me musaxxx or xxxmusa, which i would get if i did not use quotes.
i should get only ' musa', ' musa ', 'musa '. because when you have a gigantic database - too many related entries are pulled unnecessarily, it's a waste of time and resources.
and when i am sure about the word i am searching for - i should be able to go just to it.
this is where the star * is usually used. i saw a prev post about implementing *, by dave. it could really streamline things. so you can do *musa or musa* or *musa* to indicate what you're looking for.
anyways, just a lil' wishful here.

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