spunky1 said:Becky the pod and pollen parent traits have been discussed since the first seedling bloomed, in my experience plant habit normally comes from the pod parent and the bloom will be influenced mostly by the pollen parent. This is not science and not always the case, but is only my opinion.
beckygardener said:Fred - Thanks for sharing your experience about genetic traits. I don't know where some of mine are getting their traits from? Must be the gene pool further back. I have been getting some odd blooms on some of my seedlings. Quite a few resemble the pod parent ... which is why I asked. And then there are those that look very similar to the pollen parent. But most look like something else! It would be fun to do a gene tree on some just to see where those traits are coming from. I might make a collage some time of such a tree. That would be interesting and fun!
Becky, Maurice wrote an article about this for the AHS Daylily Journal. It's available as a PDF here:
beckygardener said:Thanks, Sue! I will read that article!
Are the researchers still wanting strains of rust? I never mailed mine out. I had intended to, but apparently when we had company last year, I forgot to actually mail the rusty leaves to the university. I found them months later still in the envelope. (sigh)
Fred, I don't want to put you on the spot but I would like to please ask for some clarification.
I have seen the traditional belief that pod parents influence plant habit and pollen parents influence flower characteristics before. But no one ever describes what they specifically mean by 'plant habit' and 'flower'. There are a substantial number of possible characteristics that could describe plant habit and as many or more possible characteristics that could describe flowers.
What specific characteristics would you say were 'plant habit'?
Would these include height of the scape, number of buds, number of branches, how fast it produces new fans, width of leaves, length of leaves, dormant, evergreen, semi-evergreen, whether it has fibrous roots or tuberous roots, etc.? Which ones exactly do you include in the plant habit? Please name all the specific characteristics that seem to come from the pod parent in your crosses.
Also which plant characteristics would you include in those that were bloom and influenced mostly by the pollen parent in your crosses?
Would those include, when it flowers, if it reblooms, the flower width, the petal & sepal widths, the petal & sepal lengths, the flower colours, the eye patterns, the picotees, ruffling, whether it is fertile or sterile, the average number of seeds it produces per pod, the average number of pollinated flowers that produce pods with seeds, whether it is pod-fertile at all, whether it is pollen fertile or sterile, etc. Please name all the specific characteristics that seem to be influenced mostly by the pollen parent in your crosses.
And lastly, what proportion of the crosses you make are done reciprocally? That is, do you always cross Cultivar A x Cultivar B and Cultivar B x Cultivar A when you decide to cross two plants with each other? Do you sometimes make the crosses reciprocally? Or hardly ever? etc.
spiderjoe said:It's more scientific than saying that pod influences plant and pollen influence bloom. Go and study crosses and you will soon discover that theory is wrong. Some genes are stronger and rise to the top.
beckygardener said:Joe - I agree with what you said. I see the same thing in my garden with seedlings. I have many that I only know the pod parent. And many look a LOT like mama!
spunky1 said:Very nice seedling Pat.
This is not science and not always the case, but is only my opinion.
For myself Plant Habit= Scape Habit. Height, branching, bud count, strong enough to hold up the blooms, and must rebloom here. I always select seedlings on rebloom. I could care less about the width of leaves, length of leaves, dormant, evergreen, semi-evergreen, whether it has fibrous roots or tuberous roots as long as grows and preforms well everywhere. Of course I want a selected seedling to increase and I can tell after the second year if the increase is enough to keep it a third year.
When I look at a pollen parent I am looking at the bloom color, form and size. The color or pattern is the first thing that gets my attention. I could care less about the width of leaves, length of leaves, dormant, evergreen, semi-evergreen, whether it has fibrous roots or tuberous roots, I am only looking at the bloom because I have a pod parent that has all the other desired assets. I will make at least two of the same cross to ensure I get some seed from that cross, maby 5% I will make more than two cross's.
I really admire people that have all this scientific knowledge and hope it helps them in what there trying to achieve in the daylily world. I have been doing this for a long time and when you get down to the nitty gritty you never know what you will cross with what until you walk out the door each morning and see what's blooming. For myself I agree with Papa John "this is not rocket science its pizza and I love pizza." Again just my opinion.
GDJCB said:I recall going to look at a bull with my grandfather when I was in my early teens, we walked up to the pen and grandpa immediately said "good looking young bull, he will do". The man selling the bull, who was young, I would guess mid-late 20's, obviously took my grandpa's statement "he will do" as almost an insult and begin to list all the "stats" (birth weight for grand sire, sire, finish weight, etc.). My grandfather waited and listened and when he was finished just said "yep, he will do". Bull threw light weight calves for the first time heifers that gained well and graded well at time of sale. They both were right and the end result was the same, one relied on experience and sight to see what was there, the other, pedigree and stats to tell them. I have my own opinion on which one has more value, but it is only one mans opinion and not meant to down grade those who choose to look rather than to see. More than one way to skin a cat, though to be clear, I have not tried any.
admmad said:This post is going to be a bit long and then I will start a new thread for pod and pollen parents. I am not attempting to change anyone's opinion. I use as a basic starting point that when someone makes observations in their growing conditions that their observations are correct. However, the biological causes or reasons behind those observations may not be the ones assumed.
In my opinion, people with long and deep experience can look at something and see what is there; those without such experience need to objectively measure what they see to have the same amount of information with a similar level of confidence. There are, however, some possible catch-22s in breeding - in effect, sometimes what one sees is not what one gets.
One possible example of the complications of hybridizing.
A hybridizer has a certain set of goals and has found five plants that fulfill the requirements. One of those requirements is that the plant has at least 25 buds per scape. All five plants have 25 buds per scape and all equally fulfill the other requirements. The hybridizer can only afford to purchase one of the plants. If the hybridizer relies only on the visible characteristics of the plants then the choice of which plant to use as a parent is effectively random. The hybridizer can only use the visible characteristics (the phenotypes) to estimate the breeding values (how well the plants are at passing on their characteristics to their seedlings) of the five plants. However, if the pedigrees of the plants are available and if information is available about the characteristics of the parents then the hybridizer may have more information to help make the choice.
Pod Parent A (32 buds) X Pollen Parent B (18 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 1 (25 buds)
Pod Parent C (25 buds) X Pollen Parent D (25 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 2 (25 buds)
Pod Parent E (10 buds) X Pollen Parent F (40 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 3 (25 buds)
Pod Parent G (35 buds) X Pollen Parent F (30 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 4 (25 buds)
Pod Parent H (15 buds) X Pollen Parent J (20 buds) -> Potential Breeding Plant 5 (25 buds)
With the added information about the characteristics of the parents, when the pedigrees are available and their stats are available there is more information that can be used to help make a decision.
Breeding Plant 1 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (32 +18)/2 = 25 buds.
Breeding Plant 2 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (25 +25)/2 = 25 buds. We would expect that the seedlings produced by this plant would be less varied in bud count than those produced by plant 1.
Breeding Plant 3 has the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (10 +40)/2 = 25 buds. We would expect that the seedlings produced by this plant would be more varied in bud count than those produced by plant 1.
Breeding Plant 4 has less than the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (35 +30)/2 = 32.5 versus 25 buds.
Breeding Plant 5 has more than the expected number of buds that we would predict from a quantitative characteristic with no dominance, that is (15 +20)/2 =17.5 versus 25 buds.
When we use a plant's visible characteristics (its phenotype) as the basis for choosing whether it will be used as a parent we are relying on the strength of the relationship between a plant's genotype and its visible characteristics. But those relationships (called heritability) can vary from zero to one. When it is zero the visible characteristics cannot tell us anything about its genotype. When it is one then the physical characteristics are a perfect measure of its genotype.
Returning to the example above. A plant with 25 buds may have a genotype for 25 buds, for more than 25 buds or for less than 25 buds. We cannot know what its genotype is for certain until we have made crosses and seen what bud counts its seedlings have (on average). That is called a progeny test. Nowadays, because of the possibility of using artificial insemination, progeny testing is done extensively in the beef and dairy cattle industry.
Many daylily hybridizers use progeny testing, even though they may not identify it as a method they use. When they choose a plant to use as a parent they often cross it with many other daylilies. If it does not produce at least a few seedlings of sufficient quality it is may not be used again as a parent - that is effectively progeny testing to choose 'good' parents.
needrain said:unless mitochondrial inheritance has more influence than is usually attributed to it.
...... There are typically only 50 or so genes in mitochondria and a little over 100 in chloroplasts. There are typically 25,000 pairs of genes on the chromosomes which are usually inherited equally (one of each pair) from the pod and pollen parents.
However, there are many other factors that can affect crosses and cause the seedlings from reciprocal crosses to be different.
.........Every characteristic of a plant relies on both the chloroplast and the mitochondria. In that respect, scape height and flower size are not different. Characteristics thought of as plant habit are not different from those thought of as affecting the flower.
If it is 'equal', then what are the factors that effect a cross and tilt characteristics to one or the other of the parents? If it's truly equal, then it's similar to a coin toss. Completely arbitrary on whether offspring favors one parent or the other. If there are factors aside from chloroplasts and mitochondria, then those are the ones I'd like to hear information about.
beckygardener said:A great discussion, Maurice! Always an education when you post!
I would really like to know more about bloom colors, ruffle/teeth, patterning, eye size, etc. and how those genes can be passed to it's children. I haven't done enough crossing to figure all that out. Is there an article already written in layman terms that I could read? Or could you do us the honor of delving into that aspect of the genetic pool?
beckygardener said:So it is basically a prayer and a hope that you get what you are hoping for in a bloom through a particular cross?
That would explain why so many seedlings are culled by daylily breeders. Breeders are looking for something in their seedlings that is very specific or on a narrow scope. If they don't get it in a seedling, the seedling is culled?