Daylilies forum: Bud and Branch Update Day!

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 10:33 AM CST
What do we want on the form? That is the question...
Location
Age of Plant
Bud Count
Branching Info
Plant Height
Soil Type or Soil Quality
Fragrance
Watering Info
Fertilizer Info
Comments section
I think we need a form to check off the items we want on the form!!!
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
Dog Lover Daylilies Organic Gardener Houseplants Celebrating Gardening: 2015 I helped beta test the first seed swap
Garden Ideas: Level 2
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 28, 2015 11:22 AM CST
Idea! Big Grin

How many people use PlantStep? If there is a good number of people that use Plantstep and they update bud/branching info in their software, I wonder if we could persuade Kent to create a button that would upload bud/branch data to ATP. Whistling

As for the additional information, the zone, soil type (adjustable per flower or per garden bed), etc... could be established by the garden owner within Plantstep and then, a single "Update Plant Info" button could upload all of the information to ATP's database and automatically sort it into the appropriate places without the garden owner having to do anything more than click a single button. (They would, of course, need to update their own databases.)

Sounds super easy to me and might encourage a great deal more participation from larger gardens, too. Hurray!

Thoughts?
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 11:26 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

It would go against his interests to do that given that in a sense we are competitors with him.
Name: Jonathan Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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jon
Jul 28, 2015 12:02 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I was talking to @dave last night and we agreed that all the data in the daylilies database that could be different for everybody should be in our survey here. This would include:

Location
Soil Type or Soil Quality
Scape height
Bloom size
Bud Count
Branching
Rust Resistance
Fertility
Fragrance
Watering
Fertilizer
Comments section


I don't think we should include the age of the plant because it really doesn't matter how old it it. If it is three years old and was bought as a double fan but not taken care of, it might be a small plant. On the other hand, if it is 6 months old and bought as a 5 fan clump, and has been fertilized, then it could be 10 fans by now. Some people might think that if I should include the rust resistance, then I should include the decimal rating, but I think that most of us would be happy to know only if it is susceptible to rust or not. Also I don't know where the rust rating score came from, but I think that @chalyse had something to do with it. I heard that she had @dave put it in, and then she included it for thousands of plants. This means that it is probably not an AHS thing, and I don't think that we need it.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 12:15 PM CST
I am really interested in rust resistance, that is one of my main criteria when selecting my plants. I depend on the rust resistant decimal scores entered in by Chalyse and will never be able to thank her enough. But , I would like to see that left off of the form, I much prefer the University studies be the basis of the ratings. I have some thoughts on rust ratings for another thread.
I am on board with everything else. Just my personal thought.
Name: Jonathan Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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jon
Jul 28, 2015 12:28 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Great, maybe we can see what a few other people say, and if we can come to an agreement then we can actually get the project started.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 12:49 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I'm already working on the programming side of things.

And nothing is really ever set in stone. We can always add or remove items from the report form.
Name: Jonathan Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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jon
Jul 28, 2015 1:03 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

That's true, it will be very easy to add and remove fields later without any additional problems.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Jul 28, 2015 1:11 PM CST
I'm wondering if being grown in a container versus in ground wouldn't be a significant factor in how the plant performs. A container plant doesn't have to share water or nutrients outside of the container, but the roots are more exposed to excessive temperatures and the water they receive may be gone sooner than and in ground planting.
Donald
Name: Jonathan Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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jon
Jul 28, 2015 1:18 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I don't think that it would matter if it was in a container or not.
Name: Joy Wooldridge
Kalama, Wa. (Zone 8b)
Sunset Zone 6, Heat zone 4,
Garden Photography Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Pacific Northwest Daylilies Lilies
Bulbs Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Seed Starter Container Gardener Cat Lover Hummingbirder
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Joy
Jul 28, 2015 1:36 PM CST
I agree with you Donald. Fertilizing. Watering and repotting when needed are even more important when they are grown in containers. And probably why most people don't do it. My plants show a big difference in how they perform if these chores aren't kept up on a consistent basis. Sometimes life happens.
No two gardens are the same. No two days are the same in one garden. ~Hugh Johnson
[Last edited by Joy - Jul 28, 2015 1:54 PM (+)]
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Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Jul 28, 2015 1:43 PM CST
Wow Jon, you and Dave just decided on your own last night what should be on the form? Thanks for telling us it's not in stone. Since you two decided that all the data in the daylilies database that could be different for everybody should be in your survey, wouldn't that be pretty much everything? You are missing bloom time and bloom color.
I thought we had established that it is critical a plant being surveyed is mature? Since I believe in a vast majority of cases that will directly correlate to age of the plant I would think age is critical. I guess a simple note at the top of the form reminding people the plant must be mature would be sufficient.
Are you guys including multiple comment fields for different things like general, bud spacing, self-grooming, etc. or just one catch-all comment field?

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 2:01 PM CST
Dennis616
Well, I appreciate the effort they are making and being it was obvious to me they were just trying to get this project off the ground floor and into action, by trying to take in as many requests as possible and please as many as possible and did say it was not written in stone..to me meaning it could be modified as needed. Being Dave is the one who does have final say and could have just ignored the entire thing. The tone sounds a little harsh to me.
Name: Jonathan Whitinger
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Hybridizer Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Texas Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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jon
Jul 28, 2015 2:26 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I was thinking that bloom time could be left off because that is determined by so many factors. For example when I bought from Marryot, the plants bloomed very soon afterwards which is not normal. As for bloom color, I think that we should consider adding it to the report.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jul 28, 2015 2:30 PM CST
needrain said:I'm wondering if being grown in a container versus in ground wouldn't be a significant factor in how the plant performs. A container plant doesn't have to share water or nutrients outside of the container, but the roots are more exposed to excessive temperatures and the water they receive may be gone sooner than and in ground planting.


Yes, because a plant being grown in a container is totally reliant for the essential nutrients and water, on the grower. They would also likely get more tap water than a plant in the ground so water quality can also be a factor, plus there are other variables like the size of the pot, the type of media used etc.

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 2:31 PM CST
I do agree with we should limit the report to only mature plants, or include the age of the plant if we don't. Because the bud count and especially branching will vary so much as the plant matures.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 2:49 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Mainly my concern is that if we get too bogged down with making it "perfect" then we'll never actually get the project off the ground. I have learned through experience that when trying to do a large and ambitious project, you do what you can to get a "beta version" out there as soon as possible so that people have things to work with. Getting into the nitty gritty details of what should be in the form (or what should not be) is something that can evolve over time, after the tool is ready.

Nobody is saying how we're going to do it. The community (all of you) will be the guides over time.
Name: Juli
Ohio (Zone 6a)
Region: United States of America Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Daylilies Garden Photography Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Birds Hummingbirder Butterflies Dog Lover Cat Lover Garden Ideas: Master Level
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daylily
Jul 28, 2015 4:55 PM CST
Since Dave said he is already programing this, I may be the one "beating a dead horse" …..

Seedfork said:I am hoping that there are quite a few just following along on the sidelines who are just waiting to see if this actually develops into anything. However I am concerned that more experienced people have not joined in, is that a sign they know something we newbies don't. Do they think we are beating a dead horse so to speak, I wonder? As Dave said he would need to see more interest in this before he puts forth all the effort and time to work on it if there is no more interest shown. I would really love to get some opinions one way or the other from seasoned, experienced growers.


I've grown daylilies for almost 30 years. I was a past moderator of the Daylily Forum. I guess that makes me "experienced"… Whistling

I've been reading through this thread as it has developed. I've read through it a couple of times and I am confused
1) what is the point of this, that people do not believe what the hybridizers state when they register the plants?
2) why is it being made into some a form that limits responses to those on the form
3) I don't understand why these observations cannot be simply added as a comment. Isn't that why we have a comments section??
4) what is going to happen once people fill out these forms? All the info is going to be averaged and added to the database somehow? If someone is looking for information isn't having the comments that give location and the observations from individual people and various gardens and conditions more desirable?

I read in this thread that one person thinks people don't make comments because they get flooded with requests for trades. Another mentioned that it is difficult to read through an entire comment to find the number of buds. Shrug! Really? I have made quite a few comments and I have never had a trade request. Comments are not usually that long that you should have trouble finding the information in them… are they?

Making a comment for this information does not need to take a lot of time - really not much longer than filling out one of these forms. But it can give a lot of information to the database user.

You can make a basic "comment" in your word processing program that gives your growing conditions, zone, fertilizing, watering etc. Then all you have to do is fill in the date, bud count, branching numbers, what ever information you want to give, and copy and paste it into the cultivar's comment section. Easy and everyone can customize it to their own garden. Save the text file and use it the next time you enter info for another daylily.

You could go back and edit or add to your comments about the cultivar the next year or two as the plant clumps up or reblooms. Even add things like it sets pods easily or gives lots of seeds or has great foliage, or tends to get leaf streak. We need more comments that give information about our daylilies. We have a database full of photos. We have very few comments. To me, reading comments means a lot more than seeing numbers in a list or form.

You can make comments about branching or bud count for daylilies you see growing in AHS Display gardens, or hybridizer's gardens, or nurseries just by changing the basic comment information to reflect where you saw the plant.

Isn't this what we have comments for? Shrug!

And, you still get an Acorn for making comments.

An example of text I might set up for this purpose…

My daylily garden is located in zone 5, AHS Region 2. The natural soil is heavy clay. Mushroom compost, alfalfa, mulch, sand and other organic matter were worked into the soil many years ago when making the beds. I fertilize with Neptune's Organic once a month in April, May and June. I do not mulch. I only water established daylilies if we do not receive rain for three weeks. The daylilies are planted in full sun. I do not use any sprays of any kind.

On (date), the following observations were made about (daylily name). The daylily had (number of fans) and can be considered to be established. There were (number of scapes) this season. The daylily did not (or did) rebloom this year. The average number of branches per scape was (add number). The average number of buds per scape was (add number). The foliage of this daylily is (thin, wide, blue green, or add other description). In my garden this daylily shows (leaf streak - leaf spot - rust - heathy foliage). The blooms showed ( no - minor - major) spotting from thrip damage.


Set up your basic info to make it easy for yourself. I would use underscores "The daylily had _ of fans and can be…." so that I could highlight the underscore and type in the number. The point is that you can set up a basic file to make this easy to do. Everyone can put in what ever information is relevant to their location and to the daylily they are discussing. This SHOULD be different for everyone because everyone's garden is different. Daylilies perform different depending on where they grow. The Comment section allows everyone put in their own info. Making a form forces everyone into the options given.

Save the file, copy and paste it to the comment section and fill in the blanks. Easy!

I just don't understand what this information is for, what will be done with it, and why it can't be put in the comments section in an easy to read format that is friendly to read for users that come to the database.

Shrug!
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 5:00 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I can't answer all your questions, but I will point out that the advantage of structured data is the chief benefit of a "database" rather than a "forum."

The forum (and comments to a plant are a sort of forum) are free form, readable, but not really searchable because of their inherent lack of structure.

Structuring the information in the way we're talking about gives us a lot of power in presenting that information to the users of the database, and also lets us enhance the database even more with powerful search options.

Looking at the database as a whole, we could do without all the data details and just make it all comments. Instead of checking off "Annual" and "Full Sun" and "Edible Fruit" you could just put that all in a comment. But then you can't go and do a search to see all plants that are annuals, needing full sun and producing edible fruit.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 5:52 PM CST
1. By the stats presented by one poster about 40 per cent of the daylilies in the database do not have bud count and branching info. (I think that is the main reason this got started).
2. The second reason was the very limited responses that were put into the comments sections of any kind, and very few referring to bud count and branching. We felt something else would be worth a try.
3. The fact that the hybridizers counts were based on the results in his/her garden, and it was felt those counts could vary a great deal in members gardens (due to weather, location, etc.)
4. What Dave said.
That's about the best I can explain it,

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