Daylilies forum: Bud and Branch Update Day!

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Name: Juli
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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daylily
Jul 28, 2015 6:23 PM CST
True for most plants in the database, Dave...

It seems to me that the info going into the form is the same info most hybridizers put into the registration, so it should have been imported from the AHS.

Shrug!

Sorry I found this thread confusing. First it was about making comments, then threads, now changing the database information.

Thanks, Larry for boiling it down for me. Thumbs up

Are you all thinking of changing the stats that are listed, or adding on an additional section for ATP member observation information?

I am not sure changing the hybridizer's registered information in our database is a good thing. Lets say the hybridizer did not register a plant as being fragrant in Indiana because he has smelled 400,000 daylilies and it takes a daylily with at least average fragrance before he registers it as fragrant. Perhaps he feels you should be able to smell it as you walk by, without even bending down to put your nose into the flower.

Then here at ATP, we have two people fill out the form who have grown daylilies 3 years and have 50 daylilies in their garden, so they really have limited daylily experience. They put down fragrant on the form, because their idea of being fragrant might be that they can smell a whiff of fragrance when they stick their nose all the way into the flower.

Two different perspectives.

If this is info from ATP members, I hope it will be noted in a seperate section or somehow clearly identified that way.
Name: Sue
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sooby
Jul 28, 2015 6:29 PM CST
Seedfork said:1. By the stats presented by one poster about 40 per cent of the daylilies in the database do not have bud count and branching info. (I think that is the main reason this got started).


If you look only at daylilies registered from 1995 to the latest update then 75% have bud count and branching listed in the AHS database according to my calculations. You might want to check that in case I did something wrong.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 6:53 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

daylily said:Are you all thinking of changing the stats that are listed, or adding on an additional section for ATP member observation information?
...
If this is info from ATP members, I hope it will be noted in a seperate section or somehow clearly identified that way.


Adding to, and yes, separate section and clearly denoted as "growers reports from the members" or some-such wording.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 6:58 PM CST
I am sorry Dave said:
"So, nearly 44% of the cultivars have the data present. That's not bad."
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 28, 2015 7:16 PM CST
daylily said:
It seems to me that the info going into the form is the same info most hybridizers put into the registration, so it should have been imported from the AHS.

It was, but many registrations (particularly older ones) didn't have a lot of this data. Additionally, some fields are not required for registration. They may have a field for it on the registration form, but not all are required. (We addressed this.)

daylily said:
First it was about making comments, then threads, now changing the database information.

I think it was always about adding to the database information for cultivars that don't have the information provided. My initial point was that it is too difficult to read through all of the verbiage in the comments section when trying to decide between hundreds or thousands of different flowers. In my case, in particular, I'm looking for fragrant reds with high bud count, strong scapes, lots of buds, and lots of branching. There are THOUSANDS of red daylilies, it is completely impractical for me to read the comments on all of them to determine which ones will best meet my needs. Other people have their own reasons for wanting database information added and more streamlined. I believe Larry would tell you that the rust scores are really important to him. What if we had made that something that was put in the comments? He would have such a difficult time finding rust-resistant cultivars. The objective is to put things into the database in a way that is easily searchable. Right now, even color isn't easily searchable (I explained this earlier in the thread.)

daylily said:
Are you all thinking of changing the stats that are listed, or adding on an additional section for ATP member observation information?

I think we are all trying to update cultivars that don't have registered information for particular attributes. That was my idea to begin with, anyway, but it might have morphed somewhat into creating a separate section of "user-submitted data" which I think would be great. @dave , is that sort of what you were thinking, too? Or maybe results based on user-submitted data could be a different color but in the same box? I'm not sure...

daylily said:
I am not sure changing the hybridizer's registered information in our database is a good thing. Lets say the hybridizer did not register a plant as being fragrant in Indiana because he has smelled 400,000 daylilies and it takes a daylily with at least average fragrance before he registers it as fragrant. Perhaps he feels you should be able to smell it as you walk by, without even bending down to put your nose into the flower.

Then here at ATP, we have two people fill out the form who have grown daylilies 3 years and have 50 daylilies in their garden, so they really have limited daylily experience. They put down fragrant on the form, because their idea of being fragrant might be that they can smell a whiff of fragrance when they stick their nose all the way into the flower.

Two different perspectives.


Regarding fragrance in particular, what's to say that each hybridizer doesn't have their own way of determining fragrance? You sort of sound accusatory and belittling when you say "They put down fragrant on the form, because their idea of being fragrant might be that they can smell a whiff of fragrance when they stick their nose all the way into the flower."...but I would argue that there isn't a set way of determining fragrance. Granted, I'm a newbie, but have you, yourself, read somewhere that specifies how fragrance is to be determined? If not, what's to say that hybridizers don't 'stick their noses way in' the flower or only count it as fragrant if it is overwhelmingly fragrant when they walk by? I don't think there is a standard.

Additionally, I've spoken with one hybridizer who claims that nothing in his garden is fragrant (which I find hard to believe). And at one of the gardens I purchased my daylilies from, when I asked for fragrant cultivars, he told me he couldn't smell any of them because he was a smoker. No doubt there are hybridizers who smoke and, as a result, can't smell their daylilies. Would you still argue that they are more 'expert' at the topic of fragrance than an average ATP user? Personally, I'm slightly offended by the notion that I'm not qualified to determine if something is fragrant or not. If I have a question on whether something is fragrant, I'll question it, but when I mark something as fragrant, it is because it was clearly fragrant when I did a sniff-check.

daylily said:
If this is info from ATP members, I hope it will be noted in a seperate section or somehow clearly identified that way.


I think that was the going thought.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jul 28, 2015 7:31 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

DogsNDaylilies said:it might have morphed somewhat into creating a separate section of "user-submitted data" which I think would be great. @dave , is that sort of what you were thinking, too? Or maybe results based on user-submitted data could be a different color but in the same box? I'm not sure...


I'm nearly 100% fixed on how I'm going to set up the data inputting side of things so that part is established in my mind. I'm actually not yet sure how, however, I'm going to actually show the results to the user. I will probably make it a separate box below the "official" data details but I'll be very open to enhancing/changing it once it gets launched and we start getting data inputted. Likely a superior approach will present itself, it'll be proposed and we'll start tweaking.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 28, 2015 7:53 PM CST
I like the form and being able to do a search using the new data being added.

I think having the questions like in Jon's examples will in fact prompt folks to add more information when they post a photo or make a comment. We need that! I am guilty of saying "It's a pretty bloom." It never occurred to me to add more in my comments. I just assumed that the AHS data in the Plant File database was enough.

I have an additional idea ....

Could we feature a different daylily cultivar each day on the Daylily Forum. Call the thread ..."Cultivar of the Day - Dragonfly Dawn" (using DD as the example). Anyone on the forum who has this cultivar could post photos and comments about this particular daylily. Could the thread then be referenced in the database under that cultivar. Could it be listed at the bottom of the Plant File database stats, "See more info: " with the thread link? Like a reference footnote.

That would give anyone interested in posting about that cultivar to read the comments and add their .02 cents worth.
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 28, 2015 7:55 PM CST
Becky, I like that idea. It goes back to my idea of featuring certain cultivars in order to draw attention to specific ones so that we can gather larger amounts of data for each cultivar instead of a sprinkling of information here and there.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Jul 28, 2015 7:59 PM CST

Moderator

How useful is the structured data that is gathered if all the variables are beyond what a computer can tell us? Not only do all the variables of growing daylilies come into question, but add in those of the "user" filling out the form. The data may be structured, but of very little value.

DogsNDaylilies said:. No doubt there are hybridizers who smoke and, as a result, can't smell their daylilies. Would you still argue that they are more 'expert' at the topic of fragrance than an average ATP user?


Yes, I would consider myself more "expert" on the topic of fragrance than the average ATP user. And I can smell my daylilies just fine Thank You.

DogsNDaylilies said:.If I have a question on whether something is fragrant, I'll question it, but when I mark something as fragrant, it is because it was clearly fragrant when I did a sniff-check.


So you, as a newbie, think you have the right to question if someone else has or is qualified to do a sniff test on a daylily, but if you mark one fragrant we are suppose to take that info as reliable. What about all this other info you want folks to fill out? Would we be wasting our time because yoiu are going to question if we know what we are doing? Sorta makes your form a mute point doesn't it?

Blinking Confused Shrug! Guess I don't see why this thread has gone on as long as it has. You have all asked for the more knowledgeable folks on this forum for their opinion, input and thoughts on this topic....the few who have replied have been largely or completely ignored and now treated rudely....(great way to introduce yourself to a website forum by the way Thumbs up ) as the conversation has rambled on. How many hands did you get for folks willing to take the time out of their already busy day and all to short bloom season to fill out your form?

Daylilies are living things, they are not predictable, they live, they die, they grow well one year and maybe not another, in your garden one struggles while 1/2 a mile down the road it is outstanding.
We already have a comments section in the database, perfect to enter the data the newbies crave. People who enter info get an acorn. Yet folks do not take the time to make comments...now you want them to fill out a form after they spend how much time gathering all the info to fill it out..in their garden, other gardens...

The majority of daylilies will have between 2 and 4 branches when grown in the average garden, 5 buds per branch, 10 to 20 buds on a scape. If you like the look of the bloom, look in the database for the registration information, check the AHS Popularity Poll results for your region, buy it, try it. Grow it 3 years then decide if it is worthy of a space in YOUR garden.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Jul 28, 2015 8:04 PM CST

Moderator

daylily said:.
Sorry I found this thread confusing. First it was about making comments, then threads, now changing the database information.
.


DogsNDaylilies said:
I think it was always about adding to the database information for cultivars that don't have the information provided.


DogsNDaylilies said:Becky, I like that idea. It goes back to my idea of featuring certain cultivars in order to draw attention to specific ones so that we can gather larger amounts of data for each cultivar instead of a sprinkling of information here and there.


So which is it?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jul 28, 2015 8:05 PM CST
That idea certainly has merit, I was wondering how the plants would best be selected? Don't want to put more on Dave with this other project going. But I did wonder if there might be a way to pull up plants with no data for buds and branching, and maybe a report on how many people have that plant and feature those in alphabetical order, or maybe by most owned and most wanted first.
Just don't know how that could work. Maybe someone has a simple solution, I just would not want to feature a bunch of plants no one has an interest in. I would really like to get one thing done first then go from there.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 28, 2015 8:12 PM CST
Char - Many of us, that are fairly new to daylilies, want more information on how different cultivars might do in our own zone, climate, growing conditions, etc. before we make a purchase. I often see plants for sale that are listed as dormants. I love them, but assume they won't grow here. But lately I've been reading from others that they just might. So do I spend the money to find out? I have a very limited annual garden budget and limited yard space. I want to make wise and educated purchases. The AHS database gives just basic info from where the hybridizer grew his plant. How do I know it will grow well here in Florida? I have also seen photos of cultivars that didn't even look like the cultivar bloom. As it turned out, it took several blooms before the plant started producing blooms that actually looked like they were supposed to. I would not have known that and would have thought the wrong plant was sent to me. What about any resistance to rust. That is of major importance to me. Most in the database don't say at all.

So we are just looking to get more info from MORE folks growing them under different conditions in different climates and zones and what they are observing.

It is not meant to be rude to you and others that are experts in the field.
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 29, 2015 6:44 AM CST
Char said:How useful is the structured data that is gathered if all the variables are beyond what a computer can tell us? Not only do all the variables of growing daylilies come into question, but add in those of the "user" filling out the form. The data may be structured, but of very little value.

Then, I ask again, why does ATP and AHS even bother with registering and displaying bud/branch count if it is so useless? Confused

Char said:
Yes, I would consider myself more "expert" on the topic of fragrance than the average ATP user. And I can smell my daylilies just fine Thank You.

It would appear I struck a nerve and, if so, I'm sorry. *Blush* I have no bones to pick with you and I never thought that I was questioning your ability to smell a daylily; but I don't see how fragrance is such a difficult topic here and why it is something that only the experts can guage. When I go into my garden, I can tell you without looking at the database that my Jim's Pick is very fragrant, my Starman's Quest is fragrant (although, strangely, not so on rare days), and that there is no fragrance to my Olallie Red. I don't feel that I need an 'expert' to tell me that. But, if we are going to leave that matter only to the 'experts', then we need to establish what qualifies someone as an expert on fragrance. Ten years of owning daylilies? Twenty? At what point does someone qualify themselves as expert sniffers?

Char said:
So you, as a newbie, think you have the right to question if someone else has or is qualified to do a sniff test on a daylily, but if you mark one fragrant we are suppose to take that info as reliable. What about all this other info you want folks to fill out? Would we be wasting our time because yoiu are going to question if we know what we are doing? Sorta makes your form a mute point doesn't it?

I'm confused by this. Blinking Confused I'm not questioning nor have I previously questioned you when you say a daylily is or isn't fragrant. If you tell me that you don't have a good sense of smell, though, then I might question daylilies you have listed as 'not fragrant', I suppose. Shrug! I'm not questioning your sense of smell, though. I am sorry, but I really am confused by this statement. *Blush*

Char said:
Guess I don't see why this thread has gone on as long as it has.

...Because there is clearly an interest present. (As a side note, how would you feel if someone said that about a thread topic you were interested in? Shrug! I don't think you meant this to be provocative, so I'm going to assume you didn't, but please understand that if the shoe were on the other foot, it might be taken as the 'rude' behavior that you are suggesting we are treating the experts in this forum with. We care about this topic, which is why it has gone on so long. Please respect our interest in the matter. Smiling Thumbs up )

Char said:
the few who have replied have been largely or completely ignored and now treated rudely....(great way to introduce yourself to a website forum by the way Thumbs up )


Crying That hurts. I'm not sure who you're referring to that we've ignored. I simply haven't had time to reply to everyone, but I had the impression that everyone was equally observed. Did you post something earlier that we didn't see? Or to which 'ignored' post are you referring? (I've had a few of my own posts 'ignored' in this thread...it just happens sometimes.)

I don't feel there has been much rudeness at all going on in this thread, so I am sorry that you feel there has. If you feel any of it was directed at you or a generalized 'you' as experts (a category to which I am assuming you belong), then I think I speak for everyone who has participated in this conversation when I say "sorry about that." I genuinely don't think any ill will was intended. I got a little terse when my ability to smell things seemed to be called into question because, to me, if a fragrance is there, it's there. There was some pushback on my part because I feel as though my integrity as a sniff-checker was being called into question, but I meant no rudeness whatesoever.

Char said:
as the conversation has rambled on. How many hands did you get for folks willing to take the time out of their already busy day and all to short bloom season to fill out your form?


I'm not so sure I would say that this thread has "rambled on" any more than any other thread, however, and I think we all feel that something useful is starting here. I'm sorry you don't agree. Again, I would ask that you please respect our interests in the matter. There are some things in the database that aren't of great interest or use to me, but I don't feel it right to suggest that they are 'ramblings' or 'useless' information.

Char said:
Daylilies are living things, they are not predictable, they live, they die, they grow well one year and maybe not another, in your garden one struggles while 1/2 a mile down the road it is outstanding.
We already have a comments section in the database, perfect to enter the data the newbies crave. People who enter info get an acorn. Yet folks do not take the time to make comments...now you want them to fill out a form after they spend how much time gathering all the info to fill it out..in their garden, other gardens...

No one's making you do it, Char, LoL! :-P ...but for anyone willing to fill out the information, just think about it....it could be really useful information! Thumbs up ...particularly over time as more and more information is added to the database.

Char said:
The majority of daylilies will have between 2 and 4 branches when grown in the average garden, 5 buds per branch, 10 to 20 buds on a scape. If you like the look of the bloom, look in the database for the registration information, check the AHS Popularity Poll results for your region, buy it, try it. Grow it 3 years then decide if it is worthy of a space in YOUR garden.

I can't purchase every red out there. There have to be determining factors. Bud/branch count are two biggies. I bought Jungle Beauty because of it's wonderful scapes, high bud count, and great branching. If I just looked at a picture of it online, though, I likely wouldn't have felt compelled to purchase it because it'd just be another black-red daylily. I feel like I'm having to repeat myself a lot on this, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume that it's one of the parts you didn't get a chance to read in this thread.

We all have our own reasons for wanting this additional information, but clearly the AHS thinks that bud/branching is worthy of counting, so I don't understand why you are pushing back so hard on this topic. Yes, there might be some variation between gardens. Great! The more data we submit to a database on this--not a comments section that a database can't read/interpret for mass results--the better of a feel we can get for differences between cultivars, regions, etc...

Taking a 'well everything's different' approach to this matter won't help enlighten anyone.

Here's an example: Researchers who do studies on people to determine the affects of a drug know that everyone taking the drug has different diets, different metabolisms, different....well, everything! They gather a lot of data over time, though, and soon trends start to emerge from which they can deduce certain things. They don't just throw in the towel from the beginning and say 'there's too many variables, let's not bother.' Big Grin Rolling my eyes.

I think this is worthwhile.
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Jul 29, 2015 7:01 AM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 29, 2015 6:47 AM CST
Char said:
So which is it?


The two aren't mutually exclusive. I wanted to feature particular daylilies to drive added enthusiasm and participation for particular cultivars that need bud/branch/etc. information updated. Those wouldn't be the ONLY cultivars that people can respond to, though. The other half of the project is to have a form that anyone can use at any time to fill out their observations for whichever cultivars they want.
Name: Juli
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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daylily
Jul 29, 2015 6:50 AM CST
DogsNDaylilies said: ...but I would argue that there isn't a set way of determining fragrance. Granted, I'm a newbie, but have you, yourself, read somewhere that specifies how fragrance is to be determined? If not, what's to say that hybridizers don't 'stick their noses way in' the flower or only count it as fragrant if it is overwhelmingly fragrant when they walk by?


"..there isn't a set way of determining fragrance." That was exactly my point.

What is fragrant to you, to my neighbor, or to a hybridizer in England may not be fragrant the person who is filling out the form.

Or, you may have the person who smells some level of fragrance, however small, on every single daylily in their garden, thinks that is being fragrant, so marks every form as that daylily being fragrant. You are looking for fragrance, you see that fragrance has been marked off, you buy the plant only to find out that compared to your other fragrant daylilies it has very little scent, if any.

Dave - I did not think about people doing searches in the Daylily Database when thinking this information should be put in the Comments section. It is a shame that the comments do not show up in searches in some way. It would be nice if the person searching could check a box to include comments in search or something like that. Not changing the registration information and having this info collected from ATP members in it's own section sounds like the best way to go. Thumbs up

Becky - I understand more what you all are trying to do now. Like consolidated detailed grower's reports for specific traits. This may take years to build up in the database to be of any real value for what you are trying to do. What I usually tell people new into daylilies is not to buy anything you have not seen growing near you. I usually say within 100 miles up here where I live. Evaluate plants to buy with your own eyes. Talk to the people growing them. Find out how they increase, how they did when there was drought, or flood, or whatever the gardening challenges are in your area. If they hybridize, have they used it as a parent. I still buy daylilies that way after all these years. Very rarely do I buy one I have not seen with my own eyes. Only if I have an established relationship with a hybridizer or grower and know I can rely on their judgement on what will do well for me. If you see that daylily "XYZ" is growing well in two different places near you, but the best price for it is in California on the Lily Auction - buy it there - but you have actually seen it growing so you know the color - or smelled it - you can see the plant habit, you have asked about it's rust resistance.



Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 29, 2015 6:52 AM CST
Seedfork said:That idea certainly has merit, I was wondering how the plants would best be selected?

This was something that I was hoping for input on. My original suggestion was to simply pick alphabetically, but I don't know how practical that really is. I don't want certain cultivars to be forgotten about, so that's why I thought alphabetically would work, but there is probably a better way. Maybe we could start with the oldies-but-goodies and do it by registration year? I don't know. I was hoping that the moderators would be on board with all of this and that they might have some great suggestions and work toward propelling this idea forward.

Seedfork said:
Don't want to put more on Dave with this other project going.

Agreed. Smiling

Seedfork said:
But I did wonder if there might be a way to pull up plants with no data for buds and branching, and maybe a report on how many people have that plant and feature those in alphabetical order, or maybe by most owned and most wanted first.

Most wanted first - that's a great idea! Hurray! nodding Thumbs up I'm sure there's an easy way to pull up those results in the database.

Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 29, 2015 7:13 AM CST
Juli - No one within 100+ miles (probably more like 200 miles) of me grow daylilies. They are not sold here. The rust fungus pretty much eliminated them from my local area nurseries several years ago. I work full time, I have an old car, and am on a very limited gardening budget. The only way I can get an idea of what "might" do well for me is through all the fine folks here on ATP and the database. I do read the AHS database also, but the information is very limited, IMHO, for each cultivar. I need to know far more specific information in regards to my own growing conditions and climate. ATP gardeners are so kind and willing to share what they know. And I do think many would add the answers to these additional questions in the database for ALL to use. Not just me for me, but gardeners all around the world. To me, this could only build the daylily enthusiasm! Smiling
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 29, 2015 7:17 AM CST
DND - How about we do a poll? Ask the members right here on the Daylily Forum which cultivars they would like to see as the "Daily Daylily Cultivar". If people vote for a plant, it's because they have it or want it. There is immediate interest instead of guessing. The cultivars could be featured based on highest interest to lowest. When every cultivar on that list has been featured, do another poll.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
[Last edited by beckygardener - Jul 29, 2015 7:18 AM (+)]
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Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Jul 29, 2015 7:20 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

The "daylily of the week" idea is a good one, but this thread is about the bud and branch stuff. I suggest you start a new thread focused on that topic. I like the idea, btw, and will be glad to set something up.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 29, 2015 7:20 AM CST
Dave - Thank You! I will do that!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden

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