Daylilies forum: Bud and Branch Update Day!

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Jul 23, 2015 3:10 PM CST
sooby,
Sorry, I transposed the figures.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
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needrain
Jul 23, 2015 3:12 PM CST
sooby said:

So you're thinking they're getting into the ATP database before the AHS's? Or am I out to lunch (or maybe supper, maybe I should go have some, it's been a loooong day).



It was mentioned in an earlier thread this week that some entries in ATP are names being widely distributed but not registered in AHS. I think Oakes was mentioned as selling an All American daylily under an identical name to an AHS registration that was a different from the one they are selling despite having the same name. Not sure if there would be 527 such entries, but it would account for a few perhaps.

Donald
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
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dave
Jul 23, 2015 3:13 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

Ok, so some means of multiple people filling out a personal report on the bud count and/or branching, and then all these are tabulated and shown on the plant in question.

That's not extremely difficult to do. The only downside is that it wouldn't be available through the big "Search by characteristics" page. How big of a loss would that be?
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 23, 2015 3:16 PM CST
Are tet conversions listed under the original dip name?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 23, 2015 3:23 PM CST
Dave, would, or could there be a way to include the state the info was gathered from? That only downside is something we couldn't figure out. I don't know how to answer the downside question, maybe we can try something and see how it works?
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jul 23, 2015 3:23 PM (+)]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Jul 23, 2015 4:06 PM CST

Moderator

DogsNDaylilies said:

I propose that we have a couple of Bud and Branch update days (or weeks, or months...) on ATP where we all go into our gardens and record the number of buds and branches (terminal Y counting as 1) our plants have and start updating the database.


Firstly, anyone doing this should read and more importantly understand how to count branching. A terminal "Y" is counted as 2 branches, not 1. An explanation of how to count branches can be found here...
http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_d...

There are more downsides than where someone is from to consider....Who is going to check that everyone is accurately counting what they see in their garden? Are we talking average of a number of scapes, individual scape....What happens when someone makes an entry this year on a daylily and next year the branching has changed, for better or worse...who will monitor that not only is the branching different that year... in that persons garden..., but that the person needs to change or add the new information....How about the person living where rainfall is plentiful compared to drought, or potted being pampered with every nutritional need met....is it even possible someone could go through and post branch counts without even growing the plant ...just to collect acorns? Just how accurate and useful will this new information be?

We already have a very well thought out system for storing, entering, changing and commenting on plants in the database. If you want to comment on a cultivars performance in your garden, fill out a comment including how you grow the plant with that performance and collect your acorn. We live in an "I want it now" society, sometimes we need to slow down and see what is already available to us before proposing changes that may not be as easy to implement as they first seem.

Whatever is decided will be decided...just adding my 2 cents Smiling
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 23, 2015 4:11 PM CST
That is one of the reasons I suggested submitting PHOTOS of branching and bud counts to the database. I do trust a photo that I look at if blooms are still on it. I don't always trust what I read. Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Joy Wooldridge
Kalama, Wa. (Zone 8b)
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Joy
Jul 23, 2015 4:12 PM CST
Very valid points Char.
No two gardens are the same. No two days are the same in one garden. ~Hugh Johnson
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 23, 2015 4:14 PM CST
I think you have some good points and all those things should be considered, just how those issues will be resolved is part of the dilemma, I think a lot of those variable could be answered by having a check box for the age of the plant. The age of the plant would then be reflected as the data changed that would be a very interesting observation to follow.
Certainly it would be great if at least an annual report could be filed. Yes, I think that would be great!
Maybe we could link photos to the report somehow. A yard stick showing the height, a photo at the end of the season when the branching is much more obvious. Maybe somehow each check box on the form could be linked to a corresponding photo? Am I getting overly ambitious?
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jul 23, 2015 4:21 PM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Jul 23, 2015 4:18 PM CST
beckygardener said:Are tet conversions listed under the original dip name?


I believe the AHS does not separate them.

Name: Joy Wooldridge
Kalama, Wa. (Zone 8b)
Sunset Zone 6, Heat zone 4,
Garden Photography Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Pacific Northwest Daylilies Lilies
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Joy
Jul 23, 2015 4:28 PM CST
So that must mean that tet conversions are registered then? I didn't know this.
No two gardens are the same. No two days are the same in one garden. ~Hugh Johnson
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 23, 2015 4:40 PM CST
The tet conversions always confuse me when looking at a pedigree line. When I created some pedigree charts that had the tet conversions in the family line, I had to highlight them in blue with an asterisk to note they were conversions.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 23, 2015 4:44 PM CST
Back to Char's point:
"We already have a very well thought out system for storing, entering, changing and commenting on plants in the database".
It is probably the best system by far available on the web, and I hope Dave will be able to figure out some way to tie these new ideas in with that system, but if not, to at least make it as well thought out and user friendly as that system.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Jul 23, 2015 4:54 PM CST
I agree Our database here on ATP is a really good one.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 23, 2015 5:33 PM CST
Joy said:So that must mean that tet conversions are registered then? I didn't know this.


I'm not quite sure what their status is but, looking at one example, there's a registration for 'Lullaby Baby' with no separate entry for the conversion, but if you search on 'Lullaby Baby' as a parent you get results that include Tet. 'Lullaby Baby' as well as 'Lullaby Baby'.
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jul 23, 2015 6:40 PM CST
Char said:

Firstly, anyone doing this should read and more importantly understand how to count branching. A terminal "Y" is counted as 2 branches, not 1. An explanation of how to count branches can be found here...
http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_d...

There are more downsides than where someone is from to consider....Who is going to check that everyone is accurately counting what they see in their garden? Are we talking average of a number of scapes, individual scape....What happens when someone makes an entry this year on a daylily and next year the branching has changed, for better or worse...who will monitor that not only is the branching different that year... in that persons garden..., but that the person needs to change or add the new information....How about the person living where rainfall is plentiful compared to drought, or potted being pampered with every nutritional need met....is it even possible someone could go through and post branch counts without even growing the plant ...just to collect acorns? Just how accurate and useful will this new information be?

We already have a very well thought out system for storing, entering, changing and commenting on plants in the database. If you want to comment on a cultivars performance in your garden, fill out a comment including how you grow the plant with that performance and collect your acorn. We live in an "I want it now" society, sometimes we need to slow down and see what is already available to us before proposing changes that may not be as easy to implement as they first seem.

Whatever is decided will be decided...just adding my 2 cents Smiling


Char,
I appreciate your input. I'll try to adress things in order...

I'm still a newbie, but a mentor of mine indicated to me that the Y branch isn't supposed to be counted as two, so that's why I said that; I wasn't trying to mess things up. Sorry if I was incorrect. *Blush*

As for accuracy and trust...everything in the database is built on an honor code, both AHS and ATP. Theoretically, I could register a plant with the AHS as 6-way branching when it was only 2-way. But we all, I hope, have a lot more respect for the accuracy and honor of the information in the database, so we would all do our best to be accurate. Smiling Yes, different plants are grown in different conditions that are more or less favorable than others, but we do the best we can do. As a hybridizer, I'm concerned with getting better bud count, stronger scapes, and foliage of an appropriate height relative to the scape height. Without that information on ATP (or the garden websites, etc.), I'm buying and guessing about my cultivar purchases and possibly wasting money. That or I have to annoy the garden owner with endless lists of "can you tell me the bud count/branching on [insert cultivar here]?" I think the average of the results we would get on ATP is still good enough to help hybridizers (and just daylily enthusiasts/purchasers) to make better decisions about what to buy. (If ATP doesn't buy into the reliability and value of bud count and branching, why bother having those fields at all, even if it was registered with that info? It is clearly important and reliable enough for it to be recordable data to both AHS and ATP.)

I agree that ATP is a VERY well thought out system! Thumbs up ...which is why I look everything up here. It's invaluable to me. But that doesn't mean it can't be even better, right? I don't see this as being an "I want it now" issue or a lack of patience in any way. Quite the contrary, I think that is why so many of us are invested in this conversation...we want to take the time to develop the best means possible of updating the database with bud/branch/foliage/etc. info and to create the most user involvement in the process so that the results can be as accurate as possible.
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Jul 23, 2015 6:44 PM (+)]
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
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bxncbx
Jul 23, 2015 8:42 PM CST
I think we all agree that ATP has a great database! And having a place to write comments is awesome! But lots of daylilies have no comments. I have great intentions to write comments on all my daylilies but I've only done a handful. I just don't know what and how much to write. I don't think I'm the only one who keeps putting it off until I have more time to get my thoughts together (which never happens!). I do think we need a way to prompt people to make comments and this may be a good way.
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
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kidfishing
Jul 23, 2015 9:21 PM CST
I know that reality is whatever you see in your garden, but could it be like calling out the hybridizer who has listed buds and branching?
I have some plants that are registered with 35 buds and more, listed on AHS. In my garden, growing for 3-5 years they have never had more than 5 buds. I am not sure I would put that on there even though it is reality for me. I expect some under performance here. But listed as 35 buds should sill give me 20 not 5. My 30 bud daylily will have 40 for most of you who post on here, particularly when the plants are well established in both cases.
Kidfishing
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Jul 23, 2015 9:26 PM CST
Ashton - I wondered about that too. Confused
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 24, 2015 5:54 AM CST
kidfishing
I have no problem with a hybridizer listing a plant with 35 buds or more if that is what he saw in his garden, even if I only get one. That is why I think this new opportunity would be so great, it will give us a chance to see how the plant actually does in a variety of normal gardens (even if only two or three). The hybridizer might apply 5, 10, 15 times the amount of fertilizer in his garden, he may live in south Florida, he might have perfect soil etc. The fact that I don't get the blooms or bud count the hybridizer does is not calling him out, but it might be calling me out. I might just need to do a better job. But if it turns out that 99 percent of the other gardens get the results I get, then the hybridizer is not giving realistic results and might need to think about how they are presenting the expectations of their plants performance. If only two or three people report on a plant's performance and those two or three are drastically different than the hybridizers results, then maybe a push could be made to get a few more reports to verify or disclaim the poorer performance.
I certainly don't see this as calling anyone out, I look at the hybridizer results as just one more garden reporting.
I don't think the goal is to call out the hybridizer or any other gardener for their results, but just to use the feedback as a little better guide than what we have now.
I think you feel as many of us do that the photos, and the performance some of the hybridizers plants are sometimes a little different than what the normal gardener will get, so we just need to verify what the plant's actual performance in our gardens could be. We do the same with the photos when we post them. Whether we get two buds and two branches or 50 buds and 5 branches I hope everyone will report to the best of their ability what they actually see in their garden.

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