Daylilies forum: Help please

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Name: Gale
CentralWa (Zone 6a)
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GDJCB
Aug 6, 2015 12:08 PM CST
I purchased Continental Holiday in 2013 as 3 fans, i do not recall if they were all attached or seperate. The fans have grown into what looks like two seperate clumps, both four fans. The fan size for the two clumps is noticeably different, with one over twice as large at the base. The smaller fans had two scapes last year and one this year, the larger fans have not sent up any scapes at all. Is it possible, that the fans were seperate, and that when I planted them, I got the one clump to deep. I have included some pictures, I am thinking I should dig and replant.

Thank you,
Gale
Thumb of 2015-08-06/GDJCB/7178e3
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Name: Jessie Worsham
Stockbridge, GA (Zone 8a)
Northwest Georgia Daylily Society
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Jessie6162
Aug 6, 2015 1:11 PM CST
Planting too deep can cause water to collect and sit on the crown causing crown rot, but as far as I know, that will not cause a plant to stop flowering. In my opinion, it doesn't look like yours are planted too deep. I had a similar situation recently, and it turned out to be 2 different cultivars mixed together. One bloomed the first year, but the other took more time to settle in. This year when they both bloomed, it was obvious that I had 2 different plants in the same hole.
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Frillylily
Aug 6, 2015 9:11 PM CST
I have some dl that for some reason pull themselves down under the soil line and commit suicide.

I don't know why they do this? I hate it. Seems like every spring I am out there digging these up and re-setting them at their crown.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Region: Alabama Composter Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Seedfork
Aug 7, 2015 5:45 AM CST
I have often read that planting daylilies too deep will cause them not to bloom. I just read one example that stated when the plant was dug up it was found to have two crowns(one stacked on top of the other), and that all the energy went into creating the second crown so it did not bloom. The reason for the second crown was said to be because the plant was too deep, and the plant was too deep because of repeated applications of mulch too close to the plant. In other words the plant was not planted too deep but the soil was slowly built up around the plant. I can see that could easily become a problem for me being I am a heavy applier of mulch. I have also had plants that seem to pull themselves down deeper, and I made special efforts in some locations to plant very shallow and allow the plants to work themselves deeper. I have thought about placing a small pile of gravel directly under the plant in a mond form to see if that would prevent the plants from going deeper, but have never actually done it. I have read plants in sandy or soft soil often pull themselves deeper.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Aug 7, 2015 5:57 AM (+)]
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Aug 7, 2015 6:46 AM CST
Larry - My guess is that they pull themselves deeper for moisture. I have had the same problem too. I, too, read that they will not bloom or perform well if too deep.

Perhaps @sooby or @admmad might comment on this. I remember that there is an old thread about this very issue, but I can't find it.
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[Last edited by beckygardener - Aug 7, 2015 7:29 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 7, 2015 7:24 AM CST
Daylilies have been shown to be able to pull themselves deeper into the soil and to reposition themselves more shallowly when too deep.

I just read one example that stated when the plant was dug up it was found to have two crowns(one stacked on top of the other), and that all the energy went into creating the second crown so it did not bloom. The reason for the second crown was said to be because the plant was too deep, and the plant was too deep because of repeated applications of mulch too close to the plant.


In a post I showed a photo of basically the same thing. However, the "two" crowns, one above the other were unrelated to the daylily being too deep in the soil and lack of blooming. The crown closer to the soil surface was the new crown created in the current growing season while the buried crown was the older crown from the previous growing season(s). Is it possible that the example is also actually of a newer (higher) crown versus an older (deeper) crown rather than of a crown becoming too deep?

The thread is The thread "Crown Planting Depth - Especially in Areas with Very Hot Summers" in Daylilies forum

My post with the figure is http://garden.org/thread/view_post/505564/
Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Aug 7, 2015 7:28 AM CST
Thank you, Maurice for sharing the link from a previous discussion about this topic! Thumbs up Thank You!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Gale
CentralWa (Zone 6a)
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GDJCB
Aug 7, 2015 7:38 AM CST
Thanks everyone for the responses, I think after harvesting the two pods, I will dig up, and replant. I will replant in two spots, just incase it is two different plants.

Thanks again,
Gale
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 7, 2015 7:47 AM CST
In the New Daylily Handbook, on page 96, figure 1 a new crown is shown growing above an old crown. I assume that the figure is meant to be of normal daylily growth and not of a crown locating itself "higher" because it was planted too deeply.
Maurice
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Frillylily
Aug 7, 2015 8:30 AM CST
well for mine, they are almost always plants that have been planted within the past year, new ones. I can only think that loosening the soil when planting, and then planting, later the soil settles and the plant sinks. like after a big rain. I also think lots of compost does it. The compost breaks down and the plant sinks. Next, I have had plants fall down into the soil and upon further inspection found that a mole had a tunnel directly under it. When it rained, got soft the plant fell in. Could not tell why from above until I dug into it and realized it was hollow underneath.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Aug 7, 2015 8:35 AM CST
Frillylily - I agree with you about the compacting/sinking "new bed" soil. I have seen that happen here as well .
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Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 8, 2015 7:52 AM CST
Interesting about daylilies not blooming if they are too deep. Since my garden is very sandy and dry, I do mulch heavily. I have a couple of non-blooming cultivars, so I am going to check the depth. Wouldn't it be nice if the problem were that simple Smiling
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Aug 9, 2015 10:12 AM CST
Wow, you have all given me a lot to think about. I don't have this problem (yet) and I have clay soil, so hopefully the daylily suicide won't happen to me, but that is good information to know.

I was overly cautious about planting some of my DL's this year and they were planted somewhat shallow and leaned quite a bit (probably also because they weren't established yet and didn't have the rest of the clump to hold them up). Some seem to be more upright now, so maybe the plant 'established' itself and sunk a little deeper. Thumbs up
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Frillylily
Aug 9, 2015 4:38 PM CST
if the crown is covered with dirt it will rot
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 10, 2015 5:49 AM CST
if the crown is covered with dirt it will rot

This is what the American Hemerocallis Society advises for planting daylilies.
"
•New plants should be planted about as deep as they grew originally. The original depth can be determined easily by the band of white at the base of the foliage which indicates the part of the plant which was underground.
•Do not set the crown (i.e., the point where foliage and roots join) more than 1 inch below the surface of the soil."

This diagram is from the A. H. S. website
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I generally do not pay a lot of attention to the planting depth of daylily crowns in my location and growing conditions; they are probably nearly always at least a bit deeper than one inch (2.5 cm.).

Is the depth of the crown something that depends on whether one has hot humid summers versus cold winters?
Maurice
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
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beckygardener
Aug 10, 2015 8:20 AM CST
Maurice - You commented, "Is the depth of the crown something that depends on whether one has hot humid summers versus cold winters?"

I am wondering the same thing myself because of transplant issues and survival in summer. Glare
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 10, 2015 11:49 AM CST
I went out to the garden before the rain started and removed some of the soil from crowns of the ditch lily, Hemerocallis fulva 'Europa'. I chose it because I have a clump naturalized on the edge of the grassy area that has been untouched for many years and it was started as a single fan. Europa has been shown to be able to reposition its crowns. I would assume that its crowns are naturally at good positions in the soil. I then took some photos.

Crown depth of Europa
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There are four crowns in the photo. I measured the depth of the three in the cluster. The soil level is higher on the left side of the photo, lower in the centre and then higher again on the right side of the photo.
Measured from the soil level on the left and since it is about the same on the right, I assume the natural soil level -
the deepest crown is 2 1/8 inches deep, the next crown is 1 5/8 inches deep and the third crown is 1 1/2 inch deep.

Measured from the soil level in the centre -
the deepest crown is 1 5/8 inches deep, the next crown is 1 1/8 inches deep and the third crown is 1 inch deep.
Maurice
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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petruske
Aug 16, 2015 8:24 PM CST
Just this year I experienced a fan growing under the ground (actually two fans). A number of years ago I planted "Wally". It flowered the fist year. The next couple years it flowered less. Last year it had fewer fans and didn't flower at all. I decided that I would just dig it up and throw it out this year when I realized it was not going to flower again. When I dug it up I saw, what I thought at first glance, two very white, very thick roots. Then I realized they were not roots, but actually fans growing under the ground. One was about 3" long and the other 6" long. I decided it was in distress probably because of the way I planted it, so instead of tossing it I gave it new home in the garden. The smaller white fan broke off as I transplanted but the larger one was planted fairly upright above ground (difficult to do because it was at about a 90 degree angle from the other two fans in the clump). In no time it turned green, straightened out and looks just as good as the rest of the plant.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
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beckygardener
Aug 16, 2015 8:51 PM CST
Sue - I've never seen that yet, but thanks for the heads up that situation CAN happen! You may have saved some daylily's lives! Smiling Thumbs up
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden

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