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Sep 13, 2010 7:00 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
Where does one go to confess this?

So first you have too many lilies to keep up with pulling all the pods off. Then you see them later and they are pointing upwards and you think, oh, that one only has one "planned" cross, so you leave it. I will say that I never leave too many on, but a spare one? Who can resist? Well apparently not me. Fat pod season is upon me here and I have no idea why I "had to" do so darn many crosses. I "borrowed" pollen from friends to ramp things up a bit, which made the planned crosses even more fun. Things are looking good so far.

One of these years all of the criss-crossing hybridizing stuff will catch up with me and I will have lilies attacking me as I open any door. And if you know me....I can't wait for that day.
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Sep 13, 2010 11:56 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Region: Pacific Northwest Sedums Sempervivums Lilies Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Pollen collector Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Oh I have spare pods here and there... Just wait and your freezer will have three or four 1 gallon ziplocks full of lily seeds.

I broke a VIP (Very Important Pod) off at the base of the pedicel the other day. Well it was hanging by a few threads... so you can imagine what I did. I figured masking tape would be sufficient for the remaining time needed Big Grin . I just hate those little snapping sounds when I am out working this time of year.
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Sep 14, 2010 4:57 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Well, I guess I am not so embarrassed now to say that I, too, accidentally broke off a VIP...

I have never worried about allowing too many pods growing on a single stock (within reason). Last season I made a dozen crosses on one martagon stalk(knowing some would not work). Six took, and were nice and plump. (The others were far out possibilities, and I would have been very surprised if they produced. If any of these would have been successful, I would have sacrificed the same number of "easy" crosses.) This next year (this season), that same martagon increased by 50%.

But this year is a different story, and the season has been quite stressful: starting with a 3 week jump on the normal spring, with 3 inches below normal rainfall by mid June, and 4 inches above normal by the end of July! Visibly, you didn't see how stressful it really was for the lilies, but when you do the same two crosses on the same lily stalk, and the early one takes easily and the second produces a small misshapen pod, and this happens multiple times, there must be something up. I am sure the weather itself wasn't helping with the actual pollination either.



P.S. Regarding the attacking lilies outside your door: I wouldn't mind a few pincers nipping at me either...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 14, 2010 7:24 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
During the last couple of years, I have observed those lilies that I have utilized in crosses having less botrytis. And using different ones that were effected last year, this year, I notice having no problems this year, while others have (notably podless ones). It has been a very, very wet year here. The pollen was not too good during certain periods of excess rain. I pulled the anthers on one and there was never any pollen. It almost looked like what could have been used never got that dusty look. I looked more like it was glued on there instead. Sad

I've also used a great deal of Neem Oil this year, hoping to prevent all sorts of things, though always avoiding the flower itself. I liked it, hopefully it does the job.
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Sep 14, 2010 9:48 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
"Lack" of pollen was also noted here. Sometimes I think the rain washed it off, and I've observed the "glue" too. But I seemed to notice a preference of some lily pollen by bees, I think. I have no other explanation why I see an abundance of pollen on particular anthers in the early morning, only to return later that day to pollinate, and find absolutely no pollen left!

Of course, some anthers hardly produce pollen at all, and I have found that to be the case on certain Iris spp. especially. For those lilies that hardly produce pollen, I've wondered if what is there is viable anyway (?)

On another note, any evidence that neem helps prevent slugs?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 15, 2010 8:22 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
I mostly used the Neem as a foliar spray. Hadn't had problems with slugs until this year. The cost of Neem, for an every five day spray on all my lilies made it so that I didn't too wet the soil. The directions state that you can, but part of me also worried about my already wet conditions and making them worse by adding more water to them.

That said, it certainly seems like it could help.

Your observation about bees is an interesting one. The same is true for humming birds, don't you think. But maybe that is just the color difference. 'Pearl Lorraine' was the one I was speaking about above, with the "glue". The very first flower that opened had nice useable pollen....the rest was junk. Sad in that it was my favorite of the Pearls and I had all sorts of plans for it Hilarious!
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Sep 15, 2010 2:09 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Yes, the same is true for hummingbirds, as they seemed to have prefered lilies for nectar. (as did other nectar eating fauna too). Although, I don't have nearly as many Lilium varieties as you, Tracey. I grow a huge diversity of flora, and more often than not, the hummingbirds would just pass by lilies in favor of various Impatiens spp., Digitalis, Centranthus, Campanula, Aquilegia, etc. Insects seem to like my lilies' nectar better than hummingbirds. in particular, it has been a lot of fun watching bees disappear into Impatiens glandulifera and I. balfourii flowers, then backing out. Actually, it has been even more fun watching visitors watch the bees in wonderment.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 17, 2010 8:36 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
It sure does get "busy" out there when things are in full bloom, especially. Though I am surprised still at how many hummingbirds are still around. I've seen one every day this week. Butterflies too, still going strong.

I peer now and again at the Yahoo Group and saw some discussion of tetra orientals. It's a term I hadn't really heard before this. Looking through catalogs from growers who are ones to list such traits, I hadn't seen the word tetra ever used when speaking of an oriental lily. Can anybody help me here? I would say orientals in general have nice, strong, if you will, pollen. I haven't ever had a cross NOT take when going from oriental to oriental, at least not that I can recall. The same cannot be said for trumpet to trumpet or asiatic to asiatic.
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Sep 17, 2010 9:20 AM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
After the opportunity for me to buy cheaply 18 back issues (1985-) of the NALS yearbook arose a few years ago, and seeing the great work that included technical writing, I joined NALS just last year.(Okay, you can stop the laughing, finger pointing, spitwads and other gestures of shaming.... whew, at least it's not cold enough for snowballs...) Big Grin

To the point, I received lily seed in my initial packet, and they were tetra orientals from Robert Griesbach. I'm surprised you hadn't heard about them, Tracey. I don't know how the first gene doublings (2n to 4n) were made, via cochicine, oryzalin, or what, but I would have been surprised if the work had not already been done. Some breeder (and not necessarily with Lilium) prefer to stay with 2n, or whatever the natural ploidy is for the species/genus. It took Ed McRae years to realize the potential of tetraploids.

Um, a bit of a ramble, but oh well.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 17, 2010 12:21 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
I would say in my garden, I have found more virus in the tetraploids. Connie and I had an c-mail conversation about this over the summer. It would be a very interesting study. Do the high number of chromosomes actually increase the possibility, because there are more chromosomes to infect? The virus thing has intrigued me the last few years, needless to say.

You know Lefty, I wouldn't throw snow balls or ice balls here for the late NALS introduction. It does most certainly have its perks though. A huge assortment of knowledge is one of the main perks. One day I wish to attend a NALS show and do nothing but lilies for a couple days. Having gone to a the American Peony Society show this year, I most certainly see why one would attend. The amount of knowledgeable people in one place was AMAZING!

Maybe I should contact Robert Griesbach regarding the tetra orientals. I've never met him and he lives so close geographically and have truly appreciated his work from afar. And I am one who firmly believes in thanking the people who have enriched your life. I include you guys in that category, you know. Smiling
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Sep 17, 2010 1:37 PM CST
Lincoln, NE
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Miniature Gardening Butterflies
Well Tracey, you're in luck! If you don't make it to the NALS convention in Canada the next 2 years, you can come see me, Sue and Wanda in Des Moines when we host in 2013. Hurray!
Where are we going, and why am I in this hand-basket?
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Sep 17, 2010 6:58 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
"More" virus in the tetraploids - interesting. Well it is true that not every breeder has virus tolerance high on their priorities...
One reads of concern for plants becoming overbred (including lilies), and losing vigor and/or accentuating pathogen susceptible characteristics or things otherwise undesirable . This, all in the quest for the perfect flower. But it very well could be that there is a down side to the changes in make up of tetras, whether it be chromosome number, hormones, cell structure, etc., or all.

So you were up here for the Peony convention? A few of our Rock Garden Society members are active there. I am sure you have met or heard of Harvey Buchite, and you may have come across Shirey and Dick Friberg at the meetings. Not that you had any time to spare then, but I only live nine miles from the Arboretum. You, Moby, Wanda, Pard, and anyone here on cubits or DG are welcome to visit. There is a great little nursery between me and the arb too, Venero Gardens.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 17, 2010 7:43 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
The APS convention that I am speaking about was in Janesville, WI. I met briefly, your friend Denise too, as well as Harvey. In fact, I think I bought some seed from Harvey.

I will be in attendance in 2013. thanks for the heads up Moby. I didn't know how far these things were planned out. Gives me something great to look forward to attending in the coming years. It would be even greater if I had some great seedling to show. You just never know *Blush*

Also thanks for the invite Lefty. You live in beautiful country. Let's hope we all meet up in 2013. It would be fun. Hurray!
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Sep 17, 2010 11:54 PM CST
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
Garden Photography The WITWIT Badge Seed Starter Wild Plant Hunter Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Garden Sages I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Oh yeah - Janesville. I just remember that Dick and Shirley opted for the APS thing instead of our plant sale (the same day), so I though it was nearby, at least I thought...

You never know about 2013...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
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Sep 18, 2010 8:51 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Tracey
Midwest (Zone 5a)
Garden Photography Tomato Heads Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Pollen collector Forum moderator Hybridizer
Plant Database Moderator Cat Lover I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Seed Starter
You never do know about 2013. It is nice to look forward though in many respects, though never put off what you could do today until tomorrow....unless of course your day runs out of time.
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Jan 30, 2011 3:11 PM CST
Name: Michael Norberry
Arcata, CA Zone 9 or 17 suns (Zone 9a)
Region: California Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Ponds Seed Starter
Question: If you cross a tetra OT x Tetra OT will the seeds be Tetra? If you are able to cross a Tetra Trumpet x OT, will the seeds be Tetras?
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