Roses forum→Which Bolero is this?

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Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
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CindiKS
Nov 7, 2015 11:30 PM CST
Lyn, I thought of another factor that might account for the different results we get growing in pots---does it cool down at night there for you? Once we get hot here in the summer, our nights can stay in the 90s. The plants don't get a chance to recover. This summer was an anomaly in that we had 20" more rain than normal, AND it was cooler at night, down in the 70s quite a bit of the time.
In the summer, when we get rain, quite often it comes at night, and we'll get several inches at once. I think our May and June rains give the roses a real head start.
I was reading through a forum on propagation and one person pointed out that he kept his newly rooted roses in pots until the roots could "compete" with other roots in the soil. Is that why so many people pot young plants? To give them their own soil space so roots can spread farther, sooner?
When I plant in the ground, I space my roses 4 or 5 feet apart at least. All my beds are mixed beds, and I'm careful to keep any "root hogs" away from the roses. They really aren't competing with anything.
As far as growing body bag roses, I agree the best way for them is to start in a pot, but I'm kind of contradicting myself there. If it's good for the body bag roses, then why isn't it better for others? The only reason I can give is body bags have so little chance that I have to shelter them in every way. The few bagged roses I get each year stay on my west porch until they are completely leafed out. This location ensures I keep a better eye on them. I lose many when I transplant them.
I've ordered quite a few roses this year and I'm hoping this is the final year to do that. I've been more selective on orders so I do want to work smarter at it this time around. These roses SHOULD thrive here. None are zone 7 or florist roses. No more late season stressed out babies! So I'm taking in all advice here and trying to come up with a successful game plan. The comments and ideas here have been excellent food for thought!
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Nov 8, 2015 1:48 AM CST
Cindi ...

Yes, it normally cools down at night, but during these drought years, it doesn't start to cool down until after dark ... 9 pm. It can be in the high 90s by 9 am during my summer months.

I am thinking with your summer rains and boiling pots, you might want to get one of those small canvas garden gazebos or umbrellas to shelter your pots from the rains:

http://www.amazon.com/Gazebos-...

You may be able to plant your roses out sooner than I can because you do have good soil.

Also, potting soil that is perfect for my arid climate would be far too heavy for your more humid climate. (note ... I avoid potting soils with a lot of peat in that peat, if it dries out, repels water.)

>>>I was reading through a forum on propagation and one person pointed out that he kept his newly rooted roses in pots until the roots could "compete" with other roots in the soil. Is that why so many people pot young plants? To give them their own soil space so roots can spread farther, sooner?

Maybe some people think that way, but I don't Hilarious! I think of the root mass as the foundation of the plant. If the foundation is weak, then it cannot support the plant well.

When you receive a bare root rose, the root system is incomplete. It has the anchor roots, but the feeder roots are either missing due to machine harvest, man handling and shipping. That's why old rose literature always told us we had to water a newly planted rose daily. The root system was inefficient to provide for the plant until it had a chance to grow those roots. Anchor roots and feeder roots are differentiated and serve different functions for the plant.

The roots can't spread until they grow, so when you pop a bare root rose directly into the ground, it is not ready to grow. First the rose has to develop the feeder roots that provide both nutrients and moisture to the plant. They have to be developed sufficiently to be able to utilize the food created by photosynthesis. If they aren't there in sufficient quantity the rose can't help but be stressed.

So, it isn't just a matter of root competition.

Re: planting out body bag roses. I think if you could find a way to allow them to rebuild their root mass until it is fully functional, you would lose fewer of them.

To me, growing a good root mass before planting them out ... even for other plants ... ups my chance for success. I hate to lose a plant because I wasn't patient enough.

Your soil is to die for, but even with good soil and a friendly climate, allowing a plant to build a good foundation gives it the tools to succeed.

A newly planted rose is considered a juvenile plant. Young plants are more vulnerable to anything that may cause stress to the plant. With a good root foundation, it is better able to with stand those stresses.

You mentioned "dry soil" in one of your posts. A water stressed rose can take up to 7 months to recover. Of course it depends on the rose.

Another item for food for thought is the thickness of your mulch. If it is too thick, it will inhibit oxygen from getting down to the soil bacteria and they will not be able to perform their function in the soil food web as efficiently. Study of the soil food web is fascinating.

I have had to change my mulching practices due to the drought and go to wood chips. To compensate for the possibility of that material robbing the soil of nitrogen, I give the roses a dose of calcium nitrate in spring. Seems to work. I have observed a difference in plant vitality.

I, too, avoid a lot of companion planting simply because I don't want to mess with the roots. The feeder roots are located near the top of the soil. Every time you break up those feeder roots to plant something in with the roses, you are messin' with the roots of the rose.

I think you are wise to be more selective about the roses you plant going forward. I stopped being in the collector's mode years ago and concentrated on the roses that would do well in my climate. It has made the work in the garden a lot easier.

Cindi, there ARE so many variables, no one knows it all.

I hope this helps you make more informed decisions about your garden.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM CST
Thanks for 'splainin all that! Wow!
If I think of it as keeping a new rose in a pot means one less stressor on the plant, then I get it. You hit it on the mark with the dry soil. I've seen new plants wilt because I missed 1 day watering. Our wind just never stops, and even without heat, the plants are drying out. I keep replacing mulch because it blows away too! It's hard to keep more than a couple of inches of loose mulch around plants. That wind keeps me from using any sort of umbrella, but I do have the shadehouse, and we are considering putting poly back on it instead of the shadecloth. The poly creates a whole new set of problems, but it would allow me to grow baby roses in pots at least through the spring.
I quit using peat several years ago for environmental reasons, and I've seen it form a mat where water rolls off instead of soaking in. Even in a pot, it is hard to get it mixed enough to prevent dry areas. The commercial mixes sold around here have too much bark for my liking. I keep vermiculite on hand to supplement the pro mix, or sunshine mix that I use.
I did end up winning 4 roses at the rare rose auction in Carlsbad on Sunday. They are potted and actively growing, so I'll have to keep them indoors all winter while they get over their shock of being in Kansas. We're planning to install a big set of French doors in the garage, so they'll have enough sunlight to not be forced into dormancy. I don't have a dark cool place, or I would let them sleep. Several succulents and tropicals came home with me somehow from another benefit auction on Saturday, what was I thinking? aaargh. Where will I put all these? Guess I'm going to be cleaning out the basement and adding grow lights. Blinking




Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
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porkpal
Nov 9, 2015 4:49 PM CST
Congratulations on your auction success! We will, of course, expect a progression of pictures...(that doesn't sound right; but you know what I mean.)
Porkpal
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Nov 9, 2015 9:17 PM CST
Cindi ........

>>>>If I think of it as keeping a new rose in a pot means one less stressor on the plant, then I get it. You hit it on the mark with the dry soil. I've seen new plants wilt because I missed 1 day watering. Our wind just never stops, and even without heat, the plants are drying out. I keep replacing mulch because it blows away too! It's hard to keep more than a couple of inches of loose mulch around plants.

You've almost got it Big Grin

It's not just one less stressor for the plant, but good roots/good foundation sets the plant up to survive other stressors better.

Just think, if that new plant had more roots before you put it into the ground, it would have more tools to pull up moisture. You might even be able to miss a day of watering in spite of the wind ... Sticking tongue out

As for keeping the mulch from flying away with the wind, you could try a couple of things a friend of mine did when she faced the same problem. She also had a problem with rabbits.

She put up a short ... less than one foot tall rabbit fence around the perimeter of her roses. She found that the mulch pretty much stayed put and did not fly off to hither and yon.

On another part of her property, she pegged chicken wire over the mulch to hold it in place.

When I told her that I would hate to weed under a rose with chicken wire holding down the mulch, her comment back to me is that she really didn't have to do as much weeding because the mulch stayed put !

Re: your potting soil ... I hate the barky stuff, too.

I usually ammend my potting soil using perlite because I think I get better and more consistent drainage.

You might want to read Ken Ramsey's article about vermiculite vs perlite
http://garden.org/ideas/view/d...

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Nov 9, 2015 10:07 PM CST
Oh that brings back childhood memories, Lyn. My parents used to fashion chicken wire circles around the roses every winter. They filled the circles with leaves. When spring arrived, the circles were pulled out and moved to the peonies to help them stand up better.
Every winter, I end up with several roses that get pruned to the ground by hungry bunnies. They pick on roses with small twiggy stems like my Fairy rose and Drift roses. I suspect the coyotes eat a few too. They go after my 'Wild Thing' roses, maybe because they have large, colorful hips that persist all winter.
We brought the tropicals in this week because we had a frost warning. My husband, ever so helpful, carried in pots of hardy plants, agaves, bonsai pine and cryptomeria, and even a few planters of annuals. Lovey dubby After he left for work, I lugged them back out. Whistling He was complaining about how many we had in the house even after I removed a few dozen. He doesn't understand plants that are hardy, but grow in pots. One thing he really doesn't understand is my mini forest of Japanese Maples. He keeps asking me when I'm going to plant all those trees?
I have hostas in pots because the only shade is under trees, and the hostas can't handle the root competition from the trees. The trees will even send roots up into the hosta pots if I don't keep a saucer under them.
It will be a challenge to find a place to grow roses in pots for an extended time. I have good sized pots in lighter colors and I can rig up a drip line for the pots, but I need a place that gets morning sun and those spaces are all taken. I dread the hassle of trying to spread poly over the shadehouse...between the wind and hail and sun, it is a nightmare. I don't want to put the roses under the trees because that's kind of a pretty area. I have 1 week to decide what to do with the Palatine rose order. Hmmmm Confused
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Nov 9, 2015 10:30 PM CST
Cindi ...

What kind of material are your pots made of ? Are they the foam pots or what ?
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Nov 10, 2015 11:42 AM CST
I have the double walled plastic, clay, ceramic, cheap plastic, every kind.
I'm considering lining the big plastic ones with bubble wrap. Someone on another forum had luck with that.
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Nov 10, 2015 12:49 PM CST
Thanks, Cindi ...

In hot climates, it is wise to never ... yes "never" .... use clay or ceramic containers. People actually cook food in clay and ceramic pots. Maybe those pots can be used in full shade.

In my more arid climate, I have used the 15 gal black nursery pots in full sun with triple digit temps at a higher elevation which gives me a higher uv rating. No, I don't have your wind issues.

You can cluster your pots with bags of leaves or straw between them. It is harder to heat up a large mass than a small mass ... the same is true while controlling the impact of cold temps. It's harder to freeze a large mass than a small mass.

If your potting soil drains well, but not too fast, you should be OK. I also lift the pots up off of the hardscape to improve drainage.

I don't use drip irrigation for my containers. That may be because I am rather inept at setting the system up correctly. I just walk through my pot ghetto and lift the side of a pot. If it is light, the plant needs water. If it is heavy, it has enough moisture and more water is not needed. Works for me.

For the own root plants that you won, keep in mind that roses grow their roots laterally and then those roots go down the sides of the containers and gradually fill in towards the center of the root mass.

Good luck with your new roses.

Smiles,
Lyn

btw ... what roses did you win ?
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Rob Duval
Mason, New Hampshire (Zone 5b)
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robertduval14
Nov 11, 2015 9:32 PM CST

Plants Admin

zuzu said:What a pain these duplicate names are! Now that I'm adding parentage data, I find that the system invariably creates a link to the wrong plant.



Ya know, I was kinda wondering if the work I've been doing in the Rose database has been causing you extra headaches for just this reason since I've also been working on parentage data along with adding some cultivars. I do hope it helps when I use the denomination code when adding new ones so you know exactly which Rose I'm trying to add.

Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Nov 11, 2015 9:47 PM CST

Moderator

Gosh, no. You certainly aren't creating any headaches at all. MargieNY is also adding parentage data, and I really, really appreciate the contribution you're both making! I'm keeping an eye on the links to make sure they're going to the right roses. And your use of the denomination codes in the new plant proposals is sheer genius, Robert. It eliminates all confusion. Smiling
Name: Sherry Austin
Santa Cruz, CA (Zone 9a)
Region: California Irises Keeper of Poultry Roses Dragonflies Birds
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Henhouse
Nov 24, 2015 2:14 AM CST
Regan's just notified me that 'Bolero' is not available. I had ordered a tree and now need a replacement. Any suggestions on a white floribunda that's fragrant?
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
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CindiKS
Nov 24, 2015 7:58 AM CST
Well, Boo!!
Good white fragrant floribundas are scarce!
White Licorice
Iceberg
Cosmos Fairy Tale
are 3 I get when I search for fragrant floribundas in our database. There's plenty of others listed, but those 3 are widely available now. Of those, I would lean towards White Licorice, mainly because it doesn't get HUGE!
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Nov 24, 2015 1:14 PM CST
Polar Express ???
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Sherry Austin
Santa Cruz, CA (Zone 9a)
Region: California Irises Keeper of Poultry Roses Dragonflies Birds
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Henhouse
Nov 28, 2015 12:07 AM CST
I've been through Regan's list and was willing to even go pink.. What I'm looking for is a smaller flower that would be at the end of a row of bearded Iris. A smaller flower would give better visual interest/contrast than a larger HT. The row of Iris are in pinks, purples and lavenders.. I also need a tree there, which is more limiting. sigh.
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Nov 28, 2015 12:38 AM CST

Moderator

I found my 2006 edition of the Combined Rose List. I really thought I had thrown it out because it was so useless. There are no pictures, as I said. It's a small book, 6" x 9", and it's 272 pages. pp 1-5 are the introduction and the keys to the abbeviations used in the text, pp 6-24 list the nurseries, pp 25-270 are the alphabetical list of rose names with a bit of information about each, and pp 271-262 list some rose organizations and provide information about the editors. Here's a typical rose entry:

Square Dancer S dp Buck 1973 MR11 - N5, R13

This means it's a deep pink shrub, bred by Buck in 1973, listed in Modern Roses 11, and available at nurseries N5 (Northland Rosarium) and R13 (Roses Unlimited).

You can see how limited it is: No information on fragrance, height, bloom shape, number of petals, frequency of bloom, hardiness zones, parentage, and a variety of other things we want to know, so please don't waste your money on it.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
Charter ATP Member Plant and/or Seed Trader Permaculture Roses Ponds Peonies
Lilies Irises Daylilies Dog Lover Beekeeper Garden Ideas: Master Level
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CindiKS
Nov 28, 2015 3:08 PM CST
How about Susan Williams Ellis? It is a small white flower with incredible scent. Don't know how big the plant would get for you, though. It is about 4' tall, 3' wide for me.
Zuzu, you are right about that combined rose list. It isn't even enough info to confirm an entry in a flower show!
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Name: Sherry Austin
Santa Cruz, CA (Zone 9a)
Region: California Irises Keeper of Poultry Roses Dragonflies Birds
Bulbs Foliage Fan Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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Henhouse
Nov 29, 2015 10:34 AM CST
That would do if they had it in tree .. Very pretty... Does yours grow in a fountain shape? It's so hard to know what the Austins will do.
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Nov 30, 2015 1:22 AM CST
Green Ice???
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Nov 30, 2015 2:54 AM CST
Margie .... Green Ice makes a magnificent tree rose because it is a weeper, but to my nose it is not that fragrant. It is one of the most trouble free roses I have grown in both in San Diego, where I grew it as a tree rose and up here where I am growing it in a large container.

It can be kept small or large because it doesn't mind a harder prune. In San Diego, it showed no mildew in a garden where many roses had that problem. I've never seen black spot in either location. It is somewhat drought tolerant and handles both the high temps of summer and the cold temps in winter.

Here's a photo taken at twilight of the rose I am growing in a container:



Another rose that is fragrant that makes an incredible tree rose because of it's weeping habit is Sweet Chariot. The rose in San Diego had a four foot head. It was always stunning.

The hard part is finding both roses sold as tree roses these days.

I couldn't find a photo of Sweet Chariot as a standard rose.

I could list several more, but not all of them are fragrant.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

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