Plant ID forum: Tropical shrub from the Bot. Garden of Rio

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Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Feb 8, 2016 6:32 AM CST
Forgive me if I have put this up before.. I searched in this forum (The titles often being changed from how I'm used to describe a plant doesn't make it easy..) and in my posts and photos I have submitted but couldn't find it..
Thumb of 2016-02-08/bonitin/79fe1b


Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Feb 8, 2016 9:29 AM CST
The flowers remind me of Trachelospermum jasminoides. That's in the family Apocynaceae.

A lead maybe before I go off searching more, look at Tabernaemontana amblyocarpa

http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/vinales/eng/tabernaemontana_a...

https://sites.google.com/site/florasbs/apocynaceae/catavento

It obviously isn't Tabernaemontana catharinensis but the similarity might help.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Tabernaemontana+catharinen...

I searched for seed pods in the family, found something which looks like yours. Clicking on the view image button gives Dregea volubilis but flowers and form don't match. I can't get Flora d Brasil at the moment.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Apocynaceae+rio+de+janeiro...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6F98RF34m4Q/UUxenrSzEVI/AAAAAAAAGk...

Very similar flower to Schubertia multiflora ..

http://fm2.fieldmuseum.org/plantguides/view.asp?chkbox=25930

I have a feeling this has been identified before Myriam, but how to find it. There's flowers and seed pods which look so similar in this family, but I haven't found them together.

I went off searching. Back later. Rolling on the floor laughing



Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Feb 8, 2016 9:59 AM CST
Thanks Janet to put your Terrier teeth in this one! nodding
I have a vague feeling I have put this one up before, i just couldn't find it in this forum, sigh..
It would be my fault though as i forgot to name it, ( if it had been identified before.. *Blush* )
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 8, 2016 10:06 AM CST
The 'Flora do Brasil' is also not working for me at the moment.. Rolling my eyes.
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 12, 2016 3:18 AM CST
It really does look like a Tabernaemontana, but what's bothering is that the few photos I can find on the web of the genus' seedpods are so different from mine..
https://www.google.be/search?q=Tabernaemontana+seedpods.&esp...

Flora do Brasil is still off line..
As it is in a botanical garden it could also be from another tropical country..

I am sure now I didn't put it up before in this forum, I have gone meticulously through all my posts from 2015 once again..
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Feb 12, 2016 5:29 AM CST
The seed pods are the problem Myriam, but I did find other genera in the same family with seed pods like yours.

I went through the family on the Tropical Plant Guide, there's several with leaves which look much the same, and with flowers which are similar.

Maybe it's time to go through the whole Brazil list again. Hilarious!
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Feb 13, 2016 4:13 PM CST
I'm going to ask a silly question Myriam. Are you sure the seed pods belong to the same plant as the flowers?

I can't quite see the leaf venation well enough, however I get the impression the veins curl upwards some distance from the leaf edges on the seed pod photo where they look to become finer nearer to the edges of the other photos.

I can see the same seed pods in the bottom right of this photo.

http://garden.org/pics/2016-02-08/bonitin/90ab23.jpg

I can only see forming flower buds on the other photos.
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Feb 13, 2016 4:17 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1058267 (7)
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
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bonitin
Feb 14, 2016 2:38 AM CST
Not a silly question at all Janet!!! Believe me I have been torturing my brains myself to find out if those seedpods belong to the same plant, but I see no other possibility, I checked the exact moment the pictures where taken, both at 15.12 pm and the photo following the seedpods is again a flower picture at 15.13pm, (one is missing and must have been deleted) ... unless I went over to a neighbouring shrub, the one with seedpods visible on the bottom right and then turned back to the flowering one. If only I could remember Rolling my eyes.
Another bothering thing is that the stems of the seedpods are a dark burgundy colour, not sure if it turns that colour in the process of maturing. The leaves do look the same at first sight but like you say there are not sufficient details about the venation..
I'll have to go back there and double-check.. Hilarious!

I found some similar ones in the Rubiaceae..
genus Posoqueria
http://wikis.wheatonma.edu/rainforest/index.php?title=Rubiac...


One more flower picture


Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 14, 2016 2:50 AM CST
probably not Rubiaceae... as far as I found the family has flower stamen and pistels visible, in my plant they are deep down hidden in the throat.

I think we should ignore those seedpods, the likeness in all aspects to Tabernaemontana is too significant!?
What do you think Janet?
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 14, 2016 3:14 AM CST
A crop..I found some out of focus spent flowers, does is not look like the beginning of a berry-like seedpod?
Thumb of 2016-02-14/bonitin/71293b
maybe clearer in this crop..
Thumb of 2016-02-14/bonitin/967756
crop of the suspicious seedpods
Thumb of 2016-02-14/bonitin/1768bc

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
Feb 14, 2016 5:48 AM CST
The seed pods in making do look like the more mature ones! It does seem strange that there's no other mature seed pods in the other pics, but there is plenty of forming buds. I guess it could be a plant with a long flowering period.

I just checked Flora do Brasil, it's back up so we can check out some more in the family.

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Feb 14, 2016 6:39 AM CST
A link to keys of flora south east Brasil .. there's several links to photos 'figures' giving families, a click on the photos will enlarge them.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1676...
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 14, 2016 7:42 AM CST
Thanks Janet, I've been looking in those figures but didn't get any wiser...
I think we better give up on this one, maybe one day I'll stumble on it.. Rolling my eyes.
[Last edited by bonitin - Feb 14, 2016 7:43 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1058681 (13)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
Feb 14, 2016 8:48 AM CST
I couldn't find anything other than one in the family Apocynaceae which looked similar.

I agree, it's going to have to be one we stumble on accidentally, if at all.

Name: Jean
Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier The WITWIT Badge Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Moonhowl
Feb 25, 2016 11:10 PM CST
Did you look through this link? There is an e-mail for Alessandro Rapini at the University.

http://www.slideshare.net/andrebenedito/bahia-apocynaceae
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 26, 2016 3:17 AM CST
Thanks Jean, Thumbs up no I cannot remember having come upon that one before, nice photo collection of the Apocynaceae, some have similar flowers as mine, but the seedpods are again the stumbling block, I've send a mail..

rapinibot
Feb 26, 2016 11:20 AM CST
Myriam Vandenberghe, as far as I can see, this is Tabernaemontana crassa, from Africa. This species was eventually treated in other genera (e.g., Conopharyngia) which were now considered in Tabernaemontana s.l. In case of doubt with the Apocynaceae basal grade (Rauvolfioideae and Apocynoideae), you may ask Francisco Morales or André Simões who are especialists in these groups. I know the ascleps better. Hope this can help you somehow. All the best, Alessandro
Name: Jean
Prairieville, LA (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier The WITWIT Badge Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Moonhowl
Feb 26, 2016 11:41 AM CST
Too Cool! How kind to send a reply to ATP.

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-200650

https://toptropicals.com/catalog/uid/tabernaemontana_crassa....

http://www.exoticatropicals.com/tropical-trees/tabernaemonta...

http://tropical.theferns.info/viewtropical.php?id=Tabernaemo...
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 26, 2016 2:14 PM CST
Thank you Alessandro, your help is being very much appreciated! Thumbs up
Thanks Jean for the links!
Name: Myriam
Ghent, Belgium (Zone 8a)
Charter ATP Member Ferns Native Plants and Wildflowers Cat Lover Birds Bee Lover
Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Frogs and Toads Plant Identifier
Image
bonitin
Feb 26, 2016 2:16 PM CST
Forgot to say Welcome! to ATP!

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