Daylilies forum: An opinion on these leaves please

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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 1, 2016 6:55 AM CST
Hello!
My DLs are doing pretty well, but there are a couple (Taffeta Mist and Spartacus Adorned) that have "corrugated" inner leaves. They seem lighter in color and weak they remind me lettuce leaves when you leave it in a too cold fridge and they soften and get watery. Could it be the cold we get at night? We still go around 0°C at night.
What do you think? Thank You!
Thumb of 2016-03-01/cybersix/14bda7
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Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Frillylily
Mar 2, 2016 12:17 PM CST
Just bumping this up,


I would guess it is weather related, but then I see you are in Italy and I have no idea what else may be region specific to cause this.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 2, 2016 12:33 PM CST
I would say some of it is from the cold but I'm not sure all of it is. If it is very warm during the day then freezing at night could do some damage, that looks to be the case in the second picture in the leaf on the right. The sun shining on the plants makes it a bit more difficult to see what's going on, I think there may be some interveinal chlorosis which suggests a nutritional problem (which you've had before, Sabrina). That can happen just because of cold soil but also high soil pH. There are a couple of things that are somewhat reminiscent of spring sickness but I'm not seeing it as totally characteristic.

Can you take any pictures without sun shining on the leaves, Sabrina?
[Last edited by sooby - Mar 2, 2016 12:35 PM (+)]
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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 2, 2016 2:29 PM CST
Thanks for your answers!
I will try to take a pic with no sun, sorry.

Sue, I checked PH the past summer when I started to see the problem and the PH is neutral (it was a big surprise for me but I tested soil and tested the test kit LOL). I know I should make a soil test but I can't afford it. Also, people who makes the anlaysis requires big pots of soil and for me doing so it means to empty completely two or three spots. I don't have a real garden, the place where daylilies are is more like a little flowerbed.

I'm not fertilizing now, I only have liquid fertilizer and it's raining often, after a dry period of a couple of months in november and december.
Will take a pic tomorrow, many thanks!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 3:19 AM CST
@sooby, here are the pics without any sun glare.
Can you see better?
Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/387eac
Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/708ad5
Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/313397

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 5:04 AM CST
I can see a bit better, thanks. I'm still not sure what's going on though. It looks to me still as though it could be cold injury with a hint of spring sickness. The degree of chlorosis is more than I would expect to see with both of those problems though, Are these plants stunted (shorter) than other daylilies in the garden - or are these the most advanced in growth?

This is a link to an image gallery for spring sickness - what I'm seeing on yours is a little distortion and some saw-tooth splits/edges in the leaves but not the typical browning. When you look at your plants in the garden do you see any resemblance?

http://web.ncf.ca/ep568/gallery.html

The chlorosis could be a soil nutritional issue or it, or some of it, could be related to something stopping the nutrients from getting to the leaves.

Do you know exactly how cold it has got since those leaves emerged (or have the leaves been evergreen all winter)?
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 9:30 AM CST
@sooby, many thanks for your interest.
I'm attaching a pic for an overall look so maybe you can get the answer you asked.
Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/3a6472
The DL at the bottom of the pic is fine, new foliage (it went dormant for short).

The second going up is one of the "affected" DLs. It's Taffetà Mist (Dip., EV, EE). The third looks fine apart a slight "ribbon" effect on one leaf.

The fourth is another one showing the problem, it's Spartacus Adorned (Tet., SEV, ML).
In the other slice of garden (you can't see it in the pic) there's another one showing the same problem, it's Nairobi Dawn (Dip., EV, EE).

All my DLs has been planted in march 2014. None of the twisting plant has go dormant. The ones that went dormant for a really short time are fine and the new fans are good looking.
I had aphids in october, and there are several leaves on some DLs that looks like someone is eating them up, but I don't really see any living creature outside during the day. Many leaves are old and dry.
Sometimes I have the urgency of cutting everything but I don't know if it could hurt DLs so I left them as they are.

For now I can't tell about the soil. The PH seems good, it's a very compact soil, you may remember it's very muddy and clay. There are armies of wormheart living in there. I would love to make a test for microelements, I saw some kit for home use but still they cost a bit. It's not the moment for my pockets. *Blush*
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Mar 3, 2016 9:36 AM CST
Did you use soap or detergent while treating for the aphids? Either alone or with an insecticide?
Donald
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 9:46 AM CST
Good question, Donald. Seeing them from this angle, it doesn't look like spring sickness but something similar to spring sickness can happen when daylilies are sprayed with certain spreader-stickers.

Sabrina, what do the "eaten" leaves look like, can you post a picture of that? It wouldn't be aphids because they don't chew leaves, they puncture them.

For micronutrients for the most part you just need to lower the pH and then they become available to the plants. I don't think that's all of what's going on with your plants currently though. What exactly are they growing in?
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 10:13 AM CST
@needrain, I used this, it's a systemic insecticide. I used it as a spray.

Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/7c421a
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It looks white and dense, it contains THIACLOPRID and 1,2-isobenzotiazol-3(2H)one if that means something.

@sooby, here are the leaves

Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/c00614
Thumb of 2016-03-03/cybersix/020c05

What exactly do you mean with "what exactly are they growing in"? Do you mean the soil? As I wrote in another thread the PH doesn't seem to be a problem, it's lower than expected.

Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 10:23 AM CST
Thiacloprid is a neonicotinoid systemic insecticide, the other ingredient appears to be a fungicide (or preservative). Did you spray all the plants with it, including the dormants? Does it say anything on the label about a surfactant (spreader-sticker)?

By what are they growing in I mean it doesn't, from the pictures, look like unamended garden soil, it looks too coarse.

A pH of 7 can still be too high for some daylilies. Whether that has any involvement at all in what's going on now I don't know.

The pest damage looks to be either slugs or cutworms (or some other kind of caterpillar). If there's a slime trail it is slugs or snails. If there is no slime trail then you need to check for caterpillars which may be curled up in the soil at the base of the plant during the day. If you go out after dark with a flashlight you're more likely to see the culprit.
[Last edited by sooby - Mar 3, 2016 10:52 AM (+)]
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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 10:30 AM CST
There's no surfactant on the label. It says "co-formulants as needed" and nothing else.

The soil is what I found here, it's almost clay. The only thing I did was to add some garden soil with peat moss but I see it's like that clay eats it up. There are lots of "earth ruffles" due to earthworms and now it's really humid because we had heavy rains and the sun still hits for few hours the garden. It's the soil I tested the past summer and gave a neutral PH.
The real problem is that I can't take DLs out of there, the soil is so compacted and heavy that is a pain to dig and when I tried to take out some DLs (I made room for some of them in another spot) I lost a lot of roots because they were literally inglobated by soil.

I don't think I can work easily with this kind of soil Crying
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 10:37 AM CST
If you add organic matter to clay a bit at a time, even just topdressing, it can eventually become very workable but it will take time. Sooo, did you spray the dormants with the insecticide/fungicide or weren't they up yet? This is a process of elimination - if you sprayed the dormants and they look fine then it isn't as likely to be damage from the spray unless there's a variation in sensitivity between the plants. If the dormants weren't up and didn't get sprayed but the others did, then there's a possibility that this is damage from the spray (called phytotoxicity).
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 10:46 AM CST
Ok sorry I forgot the question LOL.
I sprayed each plants, they were not dormant when the aphids accident occurred!
Sue, can I cut the leaves? Would it be beneficial?

I will check for caterpillars, I don't see any trace of slugs!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
Image
cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 10:56 AM CST
Just checked on here and I posted about aphids on december. For what I remember there were no dormants.
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 10:58 AM CST
I would cut the leaves that appear damaged enough not to be functioning, and leave the rest. I know that's not an easy answer because it may be hard to tell they're not functioning unless they're obviously dead Smiling If they look soggy like frozen lettuce then cut them off.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 11:00 AM CST
So you mean the dormants were underground and missed the spray, or none of the plants were dormant so that they all got sprayed? Put another way, did the plants that currently look OK ever get sprayed?
Name: Ken
East S.F. Bay Area (Zone 9a)
Region: California
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CaliFlowers
Mar 3, 2016 11:02 AM CST
I searched the web for your insecticide, it appears to have some vegetable oil as a spreader/sticker if I'm reading correctly. I also noticed the ingredient you listed that appears to be a fungicide, but the pages I found said nothing about it.

I don't think I'd cut the leaves, the growth should straighten itself out when the weather allows.

This looks a lot like what I see at this time of year when the soil is cold, but the plants have been stimulated into growth by a mild rainy period. It appears that they're growing in quite a bit of shade, judging by the presence of moss growing in and around the bed. The pH can be fine, the trace elements can all be present, but if the soil is cold, the plants will grow, but will show signs of deficiency until the soil warms.

Definitely do the flashlight thing, and check a couple of times, once after dark, and again a couple of hours later. Also check on several successive nights. I've almost eliminated snails in areas of the yard by doing this diligently.

The two dormants in that bed sure look nice though, don't they? Even in my "too-mild-for-dormants" climate, I prefer them for this very reason. What's the plant furthest from the camera?
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Mar 3, 2016 11:28 AM CST
Sue, all the plants got sprayed, sorry for not being clear! Three are showing the problem, two have eaten leaves and these two are in the same spot.

Ken, many thanks for your post. I can see what you're saying. But I didn't thought about it because I'm just staring with DLs.
We never got hard freeze so I don't know if the soil it's too cold.

The ones that went dormant look really good, and so do the new fans that are growing, even the ones of the plants that didn't get dormant.

The small bush you see is a rododendron.

I really don't know much more about the insectide. It appears oily, yes!

Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 3, 2016 11:42 AM CST
Ken, I did a bit more reading about that other ingredient and I think it's some kind of fungicidal/microbial preservative. Some daylilies have problems with manganese deficiency when the soil pH is 6.5 or above (looks like iron deficiency) - I had that problem at 6.8 and did some research on it (and had a lab do leaf analysis). You're right about it tending to be worse in the cold though. I've run into a few cases like this and as far as I recall Sabrina had interveinal chlorosis during the summer last year also? (Well, at least her daylilies did Hilarious! )

If they all got sprayed chances are it's not the insecticide that's the problem. The Royal Horticultural Society tested thiacloprid for Hemerocallis gall midge and I don't recall any phytotoxicity but it was a different product that they used.

Sabrina, you say you never got a hard freeze but your temperatures are going to be as low as -1C in the next while? What was the lowest it went down to since the plants last looked OK?

Like Ken, I noticed the moss and wondered about that, but I think it is on some kind of rock edging?

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