Plant ID forum: Can't even guess at a genus

Page 1 of 4 • 1 2 3 4
Views: 1010, Replies: 77 » Jump to the end
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
Bulbs Foliage Fan Tropicals Butterflies Garden Sages Cactus and Succulents
Image
purpleinopp
May 23, 2016 12:46 PM CST
...for this plant that I saw yesterday. In wildlife management area, AL near FL border, pics from yesterday. The shadows were harsh there , it was totally out in an open spot under power lines. TIA!






Thumb of 2016-05-23/purpleinopp/e10352

๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Feng Xiao Long
Bogor, Java, Indonesia (Zone 13a)
Purslane Tropicals Plant Identifier
XiaoLong
May 24, 2016 6:56 PM CST
Interesting plant. I dont know what it is. But since it ha e flower parts in three, it remind me of annonaceae family flower.
Name: Feng Xiao Long
Bogor, Java, Indonesia (Zone 13a)
Purslane Tropicals Plant Identifier
XiaoLong
May 24, 2016 7:03 PM CST
Asimina angustifolia ?
Name: Leslieray Hurlburt
Sacramento California (Zone 9b)
The WITWIT Badge Region: California Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Xeriscape Native Plants and Wildflowers Salvias
Foliage Fan Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Bee Lover Hummingbirder Butterflies
Image
HamiltonSquare
May 24, 2016 7:35 PM CST
Asimina angustifolia is the name it goes by now. The photos in the DB all by the same person show four petals? Not right for Asimina that have three sepals and three petals. But it certainly looks similar. Someone will surely come along and clear up my confusion. Shrug!
Hamilton Square Garden, Historic City Cemetery, Sacramento California.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 24, 2016 7:43 PM CST
XiaoLong said:Asimina angustifolia ?


Close!

Asimina spatulata

http://www.floraofalabama.org/Plant.aspx?id=314&display=phot...

http://www.floraofalabama.org/Photo.aspx?id=13284

http://www.floraofalabama.org/results.aspx?cat=genus&id=1468...

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655432

A small area near the southern border ..

http://www.floraofalabama.org/Plant.aspx?id=314
[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 24, 2016 7:47 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1159394 (5)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 24, 2016 7:52 PM CST
I'm confused! The photo on the Alabama site is of Asimina angustifolia. It's also accepted.

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?q=Asimina+angustif...

[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 24, 2016 7:54 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1159405 (6)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 24, 2016 8:03 PM CST
There's plenty of herbarium specimens of Asimina spatulata but when you go to the link there's only the photos of Asimina angustifolia.

The full specimen can be got by viewing the image, and that image has Asimina angustifolia written on it. They must be the same? The Plant List has both as accepted.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Asimina+spatulata&source=l...

http://www.floraofalabama.org/img/specimens/TROY/TROY0000008...
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 24, 2016 8:17 PM CST
The stems of Asimina angustifolia on USDA and Discoverlife are dark brownish colour, the leaves also dark green with more pointed tips.

http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20q?search=Asimina+angustifol...:

http://plants.usda.gov/java/largeImage?imageID=asan6_001_avp...

http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/detail.cfm?imgnum=21290...

http://www.invasive.org/browse/detail.cfm?imgnum=2129085

The leaves seem to be more alternate where the ID plant's leaves look to swirl around the stem. They look different!

https://jcra.ncsu.edu/resources/photographs/plants-results.p...

http://floraofohio.blogspot.co.uk/2014_07_01_archive.html
[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 24, 2016 8:37 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1159434 (8)
Name: Feng Xiao Long
Bogor, Java, Indonesia (Zone 13a)
Purslane Tropicals Plant Identifier
XiaoLong
May 24, 2016 8:59 PM CST
HamiltonSquare said:Asimina angustifolia is the name it goes by now. The photos in the DB all by the same person show four petals? Not right for Asimina that have three sepals and three petals. But it certainly looks similar. Someone will surely come along and clear up my confusion. Shrug!


Both plants look so similar except of the flower. Browsing internet resulting Asimina tetramera which can produse flowers in threemerous or fourmereous hence the nama tetramera. But the leaves looks different from the plant that we are talking about.

Is the pics in database are Asimina spatulata/angustifolia with rare variation in flower ? Confused
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 24, 2016 9:03 PM CST
There's been a lot of changes, the Catalogue of Life is out of date.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/details...

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655432

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantNameByVersion.do?id=20001531-1...

Slimleaf Pawpaw (Asimina longifolia)

Same for Asimina angustifolia Raf.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/details...

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655402

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantNameByVersion.do?id=72490-1&ve...



Name: Feng Xiao Long
Bogor, Java, Indonesia (Zone 13a)
Purslane Tropicals Plant Identifier
XiaoLong
May 24, 2016 9:11 PM CST
Thats a nice investigation Janet ๐Ÿ˜Š

Maybe they were the same species and synonimously named. Its my humble opinion since i dont know much about native american plant that i never seen before.

Is it possible if alternate leaves is happened on lateral branches and swirl leaves hapened on upright or main stem? Confused
Name: Leslieray Hurlburt
Sacramento California (Zone 9b)
The WITWIT Badge Region: California Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Xeriscape Native Plants and Wildflowers Salvias
Foliage Fan Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Bee Lover Hummingbirder Butterflies
Image
HamiltonSquare
May 24, 2016 10:51 PM CST
The A. angustifolia (Raf.)1848 name is the oldest and the most recent review (Kral)1960 A. longifolia is what it's called now? I don't quite get it. Ambiguous synonym is a new one to me. Throw in A. spatulata and where did this end up? Confused Rolling on the floor laughing Some have one name or another under review. I was just happy to know the genus and am surprised it's a PawPaw. Tiffany has seen quite a few interesting plants of late. So I think i'll have a look at Asimina tetramera. I tip my hat to you. Edit: The names were lectotypified by Karl in 1960.
Hamilton Square Garden, Historic City Cemetery, Sacramento California.
[Last edited by HamiltonSquare - May 24, 2016 11:05 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1159553 (12)
Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
Bulbs Foliage Fan Tropicals Butterflies Garden Sages Cactus and Succulents
Image
purpleinopp
May 25, 2016 4:07 AM CST
Thanks so much for the investigations and replies! To make sure I'm following it correctly, is this the entry where these pics would go?
Slimleaf Pawpaw (Asimina longifolia)

I had no idea there were any plants referred to as pawpaw that aren't trees.

Leslieray, TY!
๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 5:39 AM CST
XiaoLong said:
Is it possible if alternate leaves is happened on lateral branches and swirl leaves hapened on upright or main stem? Confused


That could be the case, but there's a HUGE 'but'.

The Plant List gives both Asimina spatulata and Asimina angustifolia as "accepted".

Search both, also Asimina longifolia and you will find they have recently been updated.

http://www.theplantlist.org/

You need to click on the IPNI link to get the dates they were updated. There's two links " View Record history" and "View this record in TCS-RDF format" where it tells you the dates.

The Catalogues of Life has 2006 as the last updates, it's linked on the Plant List and will take you to the same entries which are now outdated on the Caalogue of Life. If you search on the C of L for Asimina you will get all species but these are "apparently" giving the accepted names and synonyms the wrong way around.

A search on The Plant List for Asimina longifolia brings up two results, where it is now a synonym of both Asimina angustifolia Raf. and Asimina spatulata (Kral) D.B.Ward. Click through to both entries, then to the current entries, then the respective IPNI links where you will find updates occurred in 2014 for Asimina spatulata and 2011 for Asimina angustifolia.

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?q=asimina+longifol...

As far as I can see, Asimina longifolia was modified on 2016-01-28 from a record "tcom:publishedIn Brittonia 12(4): 265. 1960 [15 Oct 1960]
tn:year 1960"

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantNameByVersion.do?id=21377-2&ve...

In taxonomy first in time takes priority.

Asimina angustifolia Raf:

The record derives from WCSP (in review) (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as an accepted name with original publication details: Autik. Bot. 77 1840.


http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655402

Click through to C of L:


Accepted scientific name: Asimina longifolia Kral (accepted name) 1 literature reference for Asimina longifolia Kral

Synonyms: Asimina angustifolia Raf. (synonym) 1 literature reference for Asimina angustifolia Raf.
Pityothamnus angustifolius (A. Gray) Small (synonym)

Source database: AnnonBase, 1.1, Oct 2006

Latest taxonomic scrutiny: Kral R., 1960


http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/details...

A second entry for A Gray.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/search/...

Asimina spatulata (Kral) D.B.Ward:

The record derives from WCSP (in review) (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as an accepted name with original publication details: Novon 11: 360 2001.


http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655432

Click through to C of L:


Accepted scientific name: Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral (accepted name) 1 literature reference for Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral

Synonyms: Asimina spatulata (Kral) D. B. Ward (synonym)

Source database: AnnonBase, 1.1, Oct 2006

Latest taxonomic scrutiny: Kral R., 1960


http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/details...

What do we make of all that?! It appears that as Asimina angustifolia was first in time, 1840, and the entry on The Plant List was modified in 2011 where the C of L entry is 2006, then Asimina angustifolia must be correct?

I don't know where that leaves us with Asimina spatulata though! It was modified on The PL later than on the C of L.










Name: Tiffany
Opp, AL (Zone 8b)
Houseplants Organic Gardener Composter Region: Gulf Coast Miniature Gardening Native Plants and Wildflowers
Bulbs Foliage Fan Tropicals Butterflies Garden Sages Cactus and Succulents
Image
purpleinopp
May 25, 2016 3:49 PM CST
Holy cow! That's a lot of work, I can't thank you enough! As far as the DB here goes, searching either name goes to A. longifolia. When searching A. longifolia, var. spatulata also shows up.

๐Ÿ‘€๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ˜‚ - SMILE! -โ˜บ๐Ÿ˜Žโ˜ปโ˜ฎ๐Ÿ‘ŒโœŒโˆžโ˜ฏ๐Ÿฃ๐Ÿฆ๐Ÿ”๐Ÿ๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿพ
๐Ÿ€๐Ÿ‘’โ˜€๐Ÿ„๐Ÿ๐ŸŒฑ๐ŸŒฟ๐ŸŒด๐ŸŽ„๐Ÿ‘ฃ๐ŸŒต๐ŸŒทโš˜๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒฝ๐Ÿก๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒฟ๐Ÿโฆโง ๐Ÿƒ๐Ÿ๐Ÿ‚๐ŸŒพ๐ŸŒป๐ŸŒบ๐ŸŒธ๐ŸŒผ๐ŸŒน๐ŸŒณ๐ŸŒฒ
โ˜•๐Ÿ‘“ The only way to succeed is to try.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 4:50 PM CST
The entries here on ATP/NGA were likely made before the changes on The Plant List. The Catalogue of Life is used here for some reason, but these official sites use the same sources and are all linked to The Plant List.

The C of L hasn't been updated, there is every reason to take the records of the latest updates on The Plant List.

The IPNI (International Plant Names Index) appears to be the ultimate resource and that should always be checked on every 'accepted' entry searched on The Plant List as well as cross checking the entries on the C of L. I imagine the C of L might at times have been updated when The Plant List hasn't but somehow I doubt that. The C of L doesn't link to the IPNI, it does quote the same resources from the IPNI though.

The resource used on the C of L for example, for Asimina spatulata is:

http://herbarium.botanik.univie.ac.at/annonaceae/listSynonym...

which gives

Ward, D. B. (2001) Novon 11 (3): 360

(left out the bits to do with collector notes)

โ‰ก syn. Asimina longifoliaยท Kral var. spatulata Kral
Kral, R. (1960) Brittonia 12: 266. fig. 9 a-b


http://www.catalogueoflife.org/annual-checklist/2010/details...

The Plant List resource for Asimina spatulata is the IPNI:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655432

The last entry on the IPNI under Record History which states "Barker: (A) Linked to BHL made on 2014-06-07 02:39:27.0 " I noted brought up a different entry when you click on it to the other two entries in the Record History, it comes up near the top and states "Novon 11(3): 360. 2001 [Read the protologue in BHL]."

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantNameByVersion.do?id=20001531-1...

The link which explains it! So yes, the two species as accepted on The Plant List are the most recent and in my opinion should be taken as correct.

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/642423#page/359/mode...

I took a snip:

Thumb of 2016-05-25/JRsbugs/d09ebe

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 4:59 PM CST
You can find the 1840 reference on the IPNI for Asimina angustifolia too:

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2655402

Click on the "Autik. Bot. 77. 1840" after selecting the last entry under Record History.

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantNameByVersion.do?id=72490-1&ve...

You then get a link to "Read this publication in BHL."

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPublicationSearch.do?back_page=&i...

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/57632#page/5/mode/1u...
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 6:02 PM CST
Hey y'all, I just stumbled across this thread. I am the one with the photos in the db of A. longifolia. Are you saying mine is a freak of nature? If you decide I need to move it let me know please.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
Butterflies Charter ATP Member Plant Identifier Region: Florida Dog Lover Birds
Image
flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 6:39 PM CST
I found this. It might help. It says in part:
Asimina longifolia var. longifolia hybridizes with A . incana (= A . ร— nashii Kral) to produce spectacular, fragrant flowers with red or pink inner petals, and the hybrid is frequent over their nearly identical ranges. Asimina longifolia var. longifolia crosses with A . pygmaea , particularly along the Suwannee-Okefenokee axis, ultimately to form swarms, the individuals varying in height, degree of arching of branches, flower sizes, pigments, and fragrances. Some of those hybrids were noted by W. Bartram.

Here's where that comes from:
http://intermountainbiota.org/portal/taxa/index.php?taxon=As...

Here's the specimen info.
http://intermountainbiota.org/portal/collections/individual/... This was taken from very, very close to me. Probably within 10 miles or less.
Specimen enlarged:
http://bisque.iplantcollaborative.org/image_service/image/00...

Specimens of Asimina longifolia var. spatulata and info.
http://www.madrean.org/symbflora/taxa/index.php?taxon=Asimin...
Because A . longifolia var. spatulata much resembles the hybrids between A . longifolia var. longifolia and A . pygmaea , it is not unlikely that it originated as such a hybrid and has extended west and north from the early swarms, these presumably along the Suwannee-Okefenokee drainage.
Tiffany, note the location they have posted on the map. Is this near where you found the one you photographed?

Another reference"
http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=ASAN6



I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
Image
JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 6:52 PM CST
There's been changes Ann. A. longifolia is a synonym, check out the links above if you dare. Hilarious!

Asimina spatulata is the only one which fits for Alabama, Asimina angustifolia isn't listed there. The two do look different as mentioned on the biodiversity library (look at the snip).

http://www.floraofalabama.org/Genus.aspx?id=1468

Yours could be Asimina angustifolia, not certain though, should check the location.

http://florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/Results.aspx



Page 1 of 4 • 1 2 3 4

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Plant ID forum
You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.

Today's site banner is by dirtdorphins and is called "Lilium 'Pink Perfection'"