Plant ID forum: Can't even guess at a genus

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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 7:12 PM CST
Photos of Asimina angustifolia on the Florida atlas ..

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

Location ..

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

I think this is your plant Ann.
[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 25, 2016 7:14 PM (+)]
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Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
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flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 7:18 PM CST
I read all the posts but couldn't really follow. Whistling
I'm pretty swamped right now so my mind is not following complicated things well that don't have to do with the things I need to get done. Did that make sense?
Okay, so if longifolia is a synonym then I should move mine to angustifolia???? Or get Zuzu to change the db as far as A. longifolia is concerned?
@zuzu
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
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flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 7:19 PM CST
JRsbugs said:Photos of Asimina angustifolia on the Florida atlas ..

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

Location ..

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

I think this is your plant Ann.


I think you got it! My county is there too.
Thank You! I tip my hat to you.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Leslieray Hurlburt
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HamiltonSquare
May 25, 2016 7:34 PM CST
I think it's in the right place with the correct name for the moment. Kral is still alive by the way. This entries history shows a name changed in 2013 by zuzu. Perhaps she can shed some of her insights. I can see why this may have been lectotyped though not all agree with that process. No easy answers here. I tip my hat to you.
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 7:42 PM CST
The Florida atlas doesn't list A. longifolia, it does list Asimina angustifolia and A. spatulata.

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

It is a match Ann! Thumbs up
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
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flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 8:05 PM CST
JRsbugs said:The Florida atlas doesn't list A. longifolia, it does list Asimina angustifolia and A. spatulata.

http://florida.plantatlas.usf....

It is a match Ann! Thumbs up


It does list longifolia as a synonym. They are one & the same indeed but we'll let Zuzu decide what it should be in the db.
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
May 25, 2016 8:08 PM CST

Moderator

Okay, first of all, a few clarifications. When I change a name, it isn't necessarily to add a synonym. Sometimes I'm initial capping the common names or correcting a misspelling. In this case, however, it does appear that I added the synonym and that I used the Catalogue of Life as my source.

An ambiguous synonym is one that is illegitimate. Usually, it means that the name never had accepted status as a botanical name. I probably added it here because we had an existing entry for A. angustifolia. The Catalogue of Life does not recognize A. angustifolia as anything but an ambiguous synonym.

Janet, I don't know why you're using the CoL Annual Checklist for 2010. It's 6 years old. You should be using the regularly updated CoL entries, updated most recently on 28 April 2016.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

If you look at the CoL entry for A. longifolia, you'll see that the source database was last updated in January 2014 and that the bibliographic citations include a couple of citations dated 2016.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

That's good enough for me to believe that A. longifolia is the accepted name.

The Plant List is a wholly unreliable source. I lost faith in it back in 2011 when I saw that it listed Buddleia and Buddleja as two different genera. It did correct this error in 2012, but it did not correct most of its other errors at that time. In most cases it simply moved all of its old data to the new edition.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 8:18 PM CST
I didn't know there was more than one version of the CoL zuzu! I used the link on The Plant List.

At least Asimina spatulata is an accepted name on the 'current' CoL which is encouraging, both the Alabama and Florida atlas sites list it.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
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zuzu
May 25, 2016 8:31 PM CST

Moderator

Right. I just added it to our listings along with some others that were missing.
Name: Ann ~Heat zn 9, Sunset
North Fl. (Zone 8b)
Garden Sages Native Plants and Wildflowers Xeriscape Organic Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level
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flaflwrgrl
May 25, 2016 8:52 PM CST
Thanks for clearing that up Zuzu. Thank You!
I am a strong believer in the simple fact is that what matters in this life is how we treat others. I think that's what living is all about. Not what I've done in my life but how I've treated others.
~~ Sharon Brown ~~



Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
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zuzu
May 25, 2016 8:53 PM CST

Moderator

I tip my hat to you.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 25, 2016 9:15 PM CST
Thumbs up

I'm curious as to the Annonbase source that the CoL uses, apparently they refer to collections held at the university in Austria.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

The foundation of this collection of dried plant specimens dates back to the year 1879 when the then Director of the Botanical Museum, Anton KERNER von MARILAUN (1831 - 1898), had begun to acquire herbarium material for the installation of an institute's new herbarium (WU).


http://herbarium.univie.ac.at/...

The date postdates the 1840 reference but the CoL have used it in their 2010 annual checklist stating A. angustifolia as a synonym "Asimina angustifolia· Raf. Rafinesque, C. S. (1840) Autik. Bot. 2 (VI-X): 77."

The reference on the Plant List is:

The record derives from WCSP (in review) (data supplied on 2012-03-23) which reports it as an accepted name with original publication details: Autik. Bot. 77 1840.


That is the same reference as on the CoL herbarium link yet they state it is a synonym.

The "WCSP" link:

1.WCSP↗
Peer reviewed treatments are available online for 151 Seed Plant families (view published families↗). WCSP gives information on the accepted scientific names and synonyms of selected plant families. It includes more than 320,000 names and allows the user to search for all the scientific names of a particular plant, or the areas of the world in which it grows (distribution). The data set counts upon the collaboration over 16 years of 132 specialists from 25 countries who have contributed data or acted as reviewers↗


http://www.theplantlist.org/1....

http://herbarium.botanik.univi...

Confused Isn't this (below) the same as Asimina spatulata, as the CoL have that as accepted too?

Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral (accepted name)

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

Sorry to be such a pain! I have doubts about the authenticity of specimens held at a university in Austria which post date the original reference. Plant hunters often made mistakes and renamed an already named species.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
May 25, 2016 9:44 PM CST

Moderator

It's entirely possible for A. longifolia var. spatulata to be a different plant from A. spatulata.

I agree that plant hunters often made mistakes, but I think it's safe to say that these mistakes might have been corrected by 2014, the last time the AnnonBase was updated. It's also possible that the people at The Plant List mistook a synonym for an accepted name, or that the people at the Catalogue of Life did, but I have to choose the most reliable source of the two and base my entries on it.

Incidentally, I couldn't find any record of A. angustifolia or A. longifolia on the WCSP website. Were you able to find them there?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 4:52 AM CST
I haven't even thought about looking at the WCSP website, in fact it hadn't yet occurred to me there was a website available to the general public. Thanks for the tip, I might get around to having a look.

I started to look through the 1840 document linked to on the IPNI very late last night/early this morning to see what I could find. I'm not sure that is the correct volume quoted, must go back and look again.

I don't know who is correct, one has to be wrong. Finding out which is maybe going to take the rest of our lives. Hilarious!
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 5:40 AM CST
Does the WCSP have a website other than a link on the Kew site?

The family Annonaceae isn't included there.

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/incfa...

I found a reference to it by putting the full name and "families published update". On the following link there's a list of completed updates if you scroll down, using "Darwin Core Archive" with links to reports. There's several pages with 78 updates, mostly for 2014 but some go back to 2013, nothing for Annonaceae.

http://e-monocot.org/organisat...

A history "About the Checklist" of the WCSP on Kew:

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/about...

WCSP has now become an international collaborative programme with more than 150 contributors from 22 countries. As more families are compiled and made available online, the more this number grows. There has also been a considerable amount of data sharing with researchers and other online data providers who have incorporated large numbers of WCSP records.


I wonder, did the Plant List get their info on Asimina from the CoL?

The database is live and updated daily. Newly published names however are automatically added from IPNI to the database but are only made visible on the website after an editing phase of about one year.


From the above quote it would suggest the PL doesn't get their info from the CoL, as the PL uses the IPNI which isn't mentioned on CoL.

From a link on the history I did at least find Asimina but nothing to go with it.

http://data.kew.org/vpfg1992/v...

Well, there's more than the eye sees. Using the "•List genera within a family" link you can get further by then selecting "•Dicotyledons".

http://data.kew.org/vpfg1992/g...

There under the family Annonaceae I got the same as I found with the search for Asimina.

Asimia Kunth (SUO) = Asimina Adans.
Asimina Adans

These could be vital clues, who knows. On the "About the Checklist" history page if you scroll to the bottom there's a lot of references. There's also a "contact us" link on the right column. Does anyone want to volunteer?

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/about...

The reference on the CoL is:

Bibliographic citation: Rainer H. & Chatrou L.W. (eds) (2016). AnnonBase: Annonaceae GSD (version Jan 2014). In: Species 2000 & ITIS Catalogue of Life, 28th April 2016 (Roskov Y., Abucay L., Orrell T., Nicolson D., Kunze T., Flann C., Bailly N., Kirk P., Bourgoin T., DeWalt R.E., Decock W., De Wever A., eds). Digital resource at www.catalogueoflife.org/col. Species 2000: Naturalis, Leiden, the Netherlands. ISSN 2405-8858.


http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

Maybe we can find more by searching "Annonaceae GSD (version Jan 2014)". Google Scholar might be useful. Any volunteers?





Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 6:06 AM CST

Accepted scientific name: Asimina longifolia Kral (accepted name) 1 literature reference for Asimina longifolia Kral

Synonyms:

Asimina angustifolia Raf. (synonym) 1 literature reference for Asimina angustifolia Raf.
Pityothamnus angustifolius (A. Gray) Small (synonym) 1 literature reference for Pityothamnus angustifolius (A. Gray) Small

Infraspecific taxon:

Asimina longifolia var. longifolia Kral
Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral


http://www.catalogueoflife.org...


Accepted scientific name: Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral (accepted name) 1 literature reference for Asimina longifolia var. spatulata Kral

Synonyms:

Asimina spatulata (Kral) D. B. Ward (synonym)


http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

Accepted scientific name: Asimina spatulata (Kral) D. B. Ward (accepted name)


http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

It looks like the CoL has made a mistake. Only Kral is quoted for accepted name Asimina longifolia var. spatulata.

Asimina spatulata as accepted name as well as synonym quote "(Kral) D. B. Ward"




[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 26, 2016 6:07 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1160602 (16)
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 7:03 AM CST
Asimina longifolia Kral

dcterms: modified 2016-01-28 12:48:24.0

Name status:

tn:noteType publicationStatus
tn:note nom. illeg. nom. superfl.


http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plant...

nom. illeg. - nomen illegitimum: illegitimate name
nom. superfl - name superfluous when published


Abbreviations used, scroll down:

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/about...

Asimina longifolia Kral (accepted name)

Source database: AnnonBase, Jan 2014


http://www.catalogueoflife.org...

The IPNI is live and updates daily. I will bet AnnonBase use it too.

I found the update link: Annonaceae GSD (version Jan 2014)

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
[Last edited by JRsbugs - May 26, 2016 7:07 AM (+)]
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Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 7:15 AM CST
Collections of participating institutions:

http://herbarium.univie.ac.at/...

http://herbarium.univie.ac.at/

The CoL do use the IPNI as a resource. It seems the CoL is not up to date.

http://herbarium.univie.ac.at/...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
May 26, 2016 11:29 AM CST

Moderator

The IPNI is frustrating. It calls A. longifolia an illegitimate name, but it also calls A. angustifolia an illegitimate name, so are both names merely synonyms of some other name? And if there is no A. longifolia, there can't be an A. longifolia var. spatulata.
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
Charter ATP Member Organic Gardener Garden Photography Bee Lover Dragonflies Cat Lover
Butterflies Birds Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Spiders!
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JRsbugs
May 26, 2016 12:13 PM CST
Asimina angustifolia A.Gray [Illegitimate] Unresolved

Asimina angustifolia Raf. Accepted

http://www.theplantlist.org/tp...

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plant...

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plant...

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