Lilies forum: A tale of two tigers.

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2
Views: 674, Replies: 26 » Jump to the end
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 13, 2016 7:22 AM CST
Until I saw Lilium lancifolium flaviflorum var. immaculatum (and I'm not even sure that's the correct nomenclature!) on the North West Tasmanian Lilium Society seed distribution list I hadn't even imagined it might exist. A tiger without spots? A yellow tiger without spots? Really!? From where? It must have been received from either the RHS Lily Group or NALS seed distributions, both of which the NWTLS participates in. But I hadn't noticed it on either list. I must have missed it... but here it was, on the local list! Could it be real? Ooooohhh. Blinking

Well, the NWTLS distribution works a bit like a lottery, to be as fair as possible and share seed around the members. Each member numbers a printed sheet of available seed lots from 1 to whatever, in order of preference. Members names are then drawn from a hat to establish the order in which they will have their preferences allocated. So, the first name drawn from the hat receives their first preference, the next name drawn receives their first or (in the case that that is gone) next highest preference, and so on for as many rounds as it takes to distribute all the preferred seed. As there is generally only one pack of each seed available, this is the most equitable method.

So, this amazing, rare, impossible beast... up for grabs, but up to chance! Such an exciting prospect - I breed 1c and such a beast could make a brilliant contribution... what beauties could those glorious genes release? All I could do was return my sheet with the impossible tiger preferenced 1. And this I did.

Luck was with me and I was thrilled! I received the coveted seeds, planted them with joy and bated anticipation, still dubious; half dis-believing. Tigers of dreams, what would emerge?

Germination was excellent and they steadily grew. When small stems emerged in the second summer they had all the tigerish features one could expect. The fuzzy leaf petioles, furry dark stems, dark lance-shaped (hence the name) leaves... aerial bulbils! Tigers indeed. But the stems were slim... they wouldn't, couldn't flower this summer. I gently pinched the stem tops, feeling for cubs in mama tiger's belly, but certain I felt nothing. Another year of suspense, I thought.

But many produced buds! Singly, in pairs and triplets. I had forgotten how small and slender tiger buds are. Flowers this summer!

I watched the green buds become tinged with yellow... so it could be true! These were definitely yellow tigers. But spots? Spots or no spots? I became rather excited that if 2 out of 3 promises were true that surely the third would eventuate. These must be genuine, true-to-name seed and very soon I would see something beyond imagination. (Had I lacked imagination? Hilarious! )

But as the days of opening drew closer I thought I could detect spots through the reverse of the sepals. Hmm... I thought, well maybe that's just an impression of where the spots would be if they didn't lack pigmentation. Hope remained. Until...

Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/860515
Well, I don't think I photographed the first one to open - I must have been disappointed!

Ahh... lovely yellow tigers, but not what the name had promised. After all it was myth and now fixed in imagination, but not reality. Never mind. Flaviflorum was wild. It was new. I picked all the aerial bulbils because they had started to fall, and enjoyed the loveliness. I had still grown a beautiful species. I still had a beautiful spotted tiger to prowl the garden.

Around ten or so of the stems must have produced buds and they opened over a succession of weeks; flowering time being an aspect of the natural variation between seedlings. The first had finished and fallen by the time the buds of the last to flower finally started to colour. I watched it because it was getting late in the season and most asiatics were spent. As it grew more and more yellow, closer and closer to opening, it became more and more exciting.

Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/402e81
Could it be? Really?

As it peeled back its petals...

Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/66a354
Yes!

It exists! It exists!!! The spotless yellow tiger exists!

Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/9c3599 Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/8f9d7b
Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/715971 Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/4a2389

So now here are my two tigers, with spots and sans:

Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/5fefda Thumb of 2016-06-13/dellac/e3f347
In place of flat black spots immaculatum has delicate little self-coloured warts and the shade of yellow is just sublime. Incredible tiger heaven. Lovey dubby

[Last edited by dellac - Jun 13, 2016 7:25 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1181095 (1)
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Image
pardalinum
Jun 13, 2016 11:10 AM CST

Moderator

Man, you better take good care of that one Della! Does it have aerial bulbils? Better collect and freeze pollen!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Jun 13, 2016 3:52 PM CST
You must have been just bubbling over, trying to hold off telling us about this. Big Grin Thumbs up
And nice to have good, virus free stock, too!!!

So now you seem to be in the same predicament that the original seed donor was: how can you produce imaculatum seed from just one imaculatum plant?

Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography
Australis
Jun 13, 2016 7:13 PM CST
I must admit to being surprised that a spotless yellow tiger exists! Well done, Della! Thumbs up

Have all the seedlings flowered? If they haven't, then hopefully you have at least a second one that is also spotless that you can use for producing more seed.
Name: Dick Cheung
Hong Kong (Zone 11b)
Image
Cheung
Jun 13, 2016 9:55 PM CST
I also have spotless form of both the yellow and orange tiger which come from Japan.
The funny thing is the spotless yellow tiger's stem and bulblets is in dark-brown just like the normal one, but the spotless orange tiger's bulblets and stem is in pure green.

Yellow spotless tiger
Thumb of 2016-06-14/Cheung/bbf800

Orange spotless tiger

Thumb of 2016-06-14/kindercheung/b94490




[Last edited by Cheung - Jun 13, 2016 10:47 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1181956 (5)
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 14, 2016 3:32 AM CST
More tigers! Exciting! Hurray!

Welcome! Hi Dick, welcome to the lily forum and thanks for sharing. Can you tell us more? How long have you grown them? Were they raised from seed? I'd love to know where in Japan they came from; if there are wild populations there? Do you have more than one yellow clone? Maybe we could trade pollen to get good seed set on our plants? Smiling

It's really fascinating how the lack of spotting in the orange form occurs with a lack of pigmentation in the whole plant.

Also, I'm curious. What is it like growing lilies in such a hot climate as Hong Kong? I didn't think it would be possible to keep lilies happy there, but it looks like you have a few and must be a bit of a keen collector at least!

Connie, I brought in this year's pollen but didn't dry it long enough and it moulded. Sad I also collected all the aerial bulbils before I realised this one seedling was the real thing - so they were all mixed up together! So I have to get it right on both counts next year. I'm hoping the bulb's still healthy after the last month of exceptionally wet weather!

Rick and Joshua, I'm hoping another of the unflowered seedlings turns out to be immaculatum too, so I can set some seed. If not, I'll use pollen from as many of the spotted yellow tigers as I can on the spotless plant, in the hope that one or more of them are recessive for lack of spots so that a percentage of the seedlings will be spotless.... Might take a while!

I almost posted about it as soon as it flowered, but then life was so busy, I fell ill, life etc... It's due to bad gardening weather that I've been processing my pics lately and got round to it. It's been like having a tremendously happy secret! 'Normal' people just wouldn't appreciate how special it is!!! Hilarious!

So thanks everyone for being 'not normal' and for all the thumbs and acorns. Thank You!

Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Seed Starter
Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography
Australis
Jun 14, 2016 3:51 AM CST
Welcome! Dick! Hope you enjoy the forum. That is a great photo of your spotless tiger.

Della - if you do only have one immaculatum, then I agree that your idea to try crossing it with its spotted siblings in the hope of some additional spotless offspring is probably your next best bet. Definitely going to need some patience, though! I wish you all the best with it.

By the way, what is this 'normal' that you speak of? Hilarious!
[Last edited by Australis - Jun 14, 2016 3:52 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1182039 (7)
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 14, 2016 4:08 AM CST
I'm still trying to figure it out. Blinking
Name: Dick Cheung
Hong Kong (Zone 11b)
Image
Cheung
Jun 14, 2016 5:42 AM CST
Both of my spotless tiger lily come from Japan as a bulb/plant.
Most of the Japanese website said that yellow tiger lily come from "Tsushima".
The spotless yellow tiger seems found from the seedling plants but not from wild and I don't know the original source of the orange one.
Although I have more than one plant of each flower but I think they are the same clone.
The yellow one I have grown for 3 years and the orange one just bought in May of 2016.
I also keep some rare lilies which is lack of pigmentation that the stem is in pure green and the pollen are in bright orange:
L. auratum var. virginale (which is the spotless auratum)
L. speciosum var. gloriosoides (Taiwan pure white form)
L. speciosum var. clivorum (pure white form)
L. japonicum var. abeanum (pure white form)
The normal form of these lily's pollen and stem should be in dark-brown or reddish brown.

Hong Kong is hot that may not be suitable for some lilies so I keep the lilies could survive in Hong Kong and most of them come from China, Taiwan and Japan.
Some lilies grows well in Hong Kong without any special care just like L. callosum, L. formosanum and L. speciosum var. gloriosoides(Taiwan form).
Some of my collection requires lower temperature in the winter that I would keep them in refrigerator for 1~2 months just like L. auratum var. rubrovittatum, L. speciosum var. gloriosoides(China form) and L. speciosum var. clivorum.
[Last edited by Cheung - Jun 14, 2016 5:44 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1182086 (9)
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
Image
magnolialover
Jun 14, 2016 6:51 AM CST

Moderator

How fortunate Della that you were able to get some seed and successfully grow this out. It's really beautiful, the whole plant from leaf to stem to flower. Congratulations! How cool to have that in your garden now.
Tracey
Name: Paul
Nullawarre, Victoria,Australia (Zone 10b)
Region: Australia
Image
vanozzi
Jun 14, 2016 6:55 AM CST
Hi Dick, glad you found your way to this site.A bit more chatter here than on the other two sites.

Della, I share your enthusiasm for flowering immaculatum!! So many new tangents to follow now.
About 10 years ago, I knew of two people in Australia that had this species.The fellow, now deceased, who brought it here received his seed from the RHS and grew an impressive amount of species on his 30 acre block in the back hills of the Dandenongs.He was a bit of a bushie and didn't like visitors, but would chat for hours on the phone.He sent me pollen of Japonicum and other stuff when I was in Tassie.Unfortunately he died shortly after I relocated back to the mainland and I think his collection was lost.
Different latitudes, different attitudes
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Jun 14, 2016 8:18 AM CST
That's really interesting, Dick, that L. callosum adapts to your hot climate. Originating in the far north, I never would have dreamed it would survive.

About Cheung's immaculatum, dellac said:It's really fascinating how the lack of spotting in the orange form occurs with a lack of pigmentation in the whole plant.


I hadn't thought about that! And since I have a lengthy rumination brewing, I'll bring it up in the Genetics thread.

And (Oh!) Della, did you originally received bulbils from the NWTLS seed ex, or seed?
And depending, had you noticed if the seed was lighter colored, or if the there where any bulbils that were all green (or same for your one proven immaculatum, now)?


I'm only looking at one pic each of Della's and Dick's yellow tigers, but it seems Della's has a lot more bumpy warts?
Name: Dick Cheung
Hong Kong (Zone 11b)
Image
Cheung
Jun 14, 2016 8:50 AM CST
L. callosum is originating widely.
Taiwan is one of the origin, which has similar weather to Hong Kong. (but the L. callosum in Taiwan was extinct in the wild long time ago)
I have sent some bulbs and seeds to Taiwan a few years ago and it can also grow very well too.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 16, 2016 6:29 AM CST
Dick, I'm so happy to know it's possible to grow a range of lilies in your climate. I have other comments/answers to make, but I'm bleary-eyed and it will have to wait. Blinking
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Jun 16, 2016 3:04 PM CST
I didn't realize that about L. callosum. Thanks, Dick. Now I am wondering how diverse the flowers are.....
do you have any pics of your callosum,?
Name: Dick Cheung
Hong Kong (Zone 11b)
Image
Cheung
Jun 16, 2016 10:43 PM CST
Leftwood said:I didn't realize that about L. callosum. Thanks, Dick. Now I am wondering how diverse the flowers are.....
do you have any pics of your callosum,?


Here is my L.callosum and it come from Japan
Thumb of 2016-06-17/Cheung/27be92

This is L. callosum var. flaviflorum from Japan
but I missed the blooming time last year Sad
Thumb of 2016-06-17/Cheung/1b2021



Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 17, 2016 1:52 AM CST
Dick, thanks for sharing. I wonder if the species you grow, including both callosum and speciosum var. gloriosoides(Taiwan form), would be happier with milder, wetter winters than most lilies (of interest to me in my climate), though I guess your cooler time of year is also the drier time. I'll keep dreaming! Hilarious! Still fascinating, especially the rare white forms, what a wonderful range of species! Have you tried Lilium philippinense, neilgherrense and nepalense?

Thanks Tracey and Paul. Smiling

vanozzi said:
About 10 years ago, I knew of two people in Australia that had this species.The fellow, now deceased, who brought it here received his seed from the RHS and grew an impressive amount of species on his 30 acre block in the back hills of the Dandenongs.He was a bit of a bushie and didn't like visitors, but would chat for hours on the phone.He sent me pollen of Japonicum and other stuff when I was in Tassie.Unfortunately he died shortly after I relocated back to the mainland and I think his collection was lost.


It's sad that so many special plants must disappear with the gardener's demise. I really hope I can get this one breeding pure from seed and share it around. I had no idea immaculatum was in Australia already - wouldn't want it to disappear again!

Leftwood said:

And (Oh!) Della, did you originally received bulbils from the NWTLS seed ex, or seed?
And depending, had you noticed if the seed was lighter colored, or if the there where any bulbils that were all green (or same for your one proven immaculatum, now)?


I'm only looking at one pic each of Della's and Dick's yellow tigers, but it seems Della's has a lot more bumpy warts?


I received it as seed, but sorry, don't remember if they - or any of them - were blond. I can't tell which is wartier - it might just be the photo angle!
Name: Dick Cheung
Hong Kong (Zone 11b)
Image
Cheung
Jun 17, 2016 2:46 AM CST
dellac said:Dick, thanks for sharing. I wonder if the species you grow, including both callosum and speciosum var. gloriosoides(Taiwan form), would be happier with milder, wetter winters than most lilies (of interest to me in my climate), though I guess your cooler time of year is also the drier time. I'll keep dreaming! Hilarious! Still fascinating, especially the rare white forms, what a wonderful range of species! Have you tried Lilium philippinense, neilgherrense and nepalense?


I have tried L. philippinense and L. nepalense before but they didn't grow well.
I would like to try L. philippinense one more time if I can get seeds or bulb of this specie.
L. wallichianum is OK in Hong Kong but I haven't tried L. neilgherrense because I never find any bulb or seed of this specie.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Jun 18, 2016 6:01 AM CST
I've never seen L. neilgherrense available anywhere either, but thought it might do well in Hong Kong. I hope you might eventually find some seeds or a bulb to try. While I've tried L.philippinense from seed - it's on the RHS Lily Group seed distribution list this year - I haven't had success with it yet and wondered if a warmer climate would suit it and I haven't had the chance to try L. wallichianum. L. nepalense! Just doesn't like our wet winters. Oh well. so many other species have given such a great reward, like the beautiful tiger lilies. If we plant enough seeds we find the lilies that like us. Thumbs up
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
Image
Leftwood
Jun 18, 2016 6:37 PM CST
Either the real L. philippinense is elusive in cultivation, or it is much more cold hardy than one might be led to believe. Many years ago, I received bulblets of L. formosanum and L. philippinense from Clay Koplin in Cordova., Alaska. He is practically on the coast, so winters are quite mild, and he periodically looses the bulk of both species due to the freezes and constant snow and rain through the winter. But both species did fine through my frozen solid winters in Minnesota. (There are at least some provenances of L.formosanum that will not survive here, but some do.)

Years back, Russell Bailey of Kiwi Lilies offered me seed of L. neilgherrence (which I declined). Can you import from New Zealand?

Page 1 of 2 • 1 2

« Garden.org Homepage
« Back to the top
« Forums List
« Lilies forum
You must first create a username and login before you can reply to this thread.

Today's site banner is by Paul2032 and is called "Chrysanthemum"