Daylilies forum: Really need help iding this! Victorian Days VS Nile Plum

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Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 20, 2016 2:58 AM CST
For days I'v been watching pictures on here, on AHS site but just can't make up my mind.
three years ago I ordered both Nile Plum and Victorian Days.
The onw marked as Victorian Days bloomed the past year and this year too. The one marked as Nile Plum is another clump of Siloam Merle Kent.
But the supposed Victorian Days looks more like Nile Plum to me.

Description for Victorian Days is:
Self
Edged
plum russet raisin self edged in yellow gold with yellow green throat

Nile Plum is
Eye or Band
silvery mauve plum with plum claret eyezone and yellow green throat

The height of the scape here in my garden is 32" and the flower is 5.5".

It has a light cream "watermark" on sepals, too.

here are some pics
Thumb of 2016-07-20/cybersix/200e5d Thumb of 2016-07-20/cybersix/8274eb
Thumb of 2016-07-20/cybersix/5c8fbb

If you look in the database on here please ignore my shot of Victorian Days, I asked to remove it because I'm not sure about it.
The reason I'd Like to ID this DL is because I used it in some crosses. I was too ignorant to distinguish and I'm still too ignorant now.
Thank You!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 20, 2016 4:52 AM CST
I don't have or have ever seen either of them, but the one point in the description of Victorian Days that is clearly different from Nile Plum, is the yellow gold edge.

If you look at the photo's of Victorian Days you can see the golden edge quite clearly in most.


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 20, 2016 4:56 AM CST
Thank you Mayo. I didn't stress much about the edge because I cannot see it so bold and prominent in most photos of Victorian days. I know it has to be there but no pic shows it well.
The only picture where I see the edge is this

Thumb of 2016-07-20/cybersix/d9f9c4

and it's from the site of the seller. but he was the one where I ordered Nile Plum too!
I'm leaning toward Nile Plume now.. the bad thing is that I used in crosses and I don't know the parentage.
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
[Last edited by cybersix - Jul 20, 2016 4:58 AM (+)]
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Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
Region: Europe Cat Lover Daylilies Irises Dog Lover Hellebores
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Mayo62
Jul 20, 2016 5:09 AM CST
oh wow!
Yes, that CLEARLY is a golden edge!!
I thought in the photo's of Joy


and Vic


you could clearly see the difference Hilarious!

Ah.. I've been collecting DL's for a little over a year now and I've noticed time and again that hybridizer photo's will be usually just a lot of wishfull thinking for the buyers... Blinking

Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 20, 2016 5:26 AM CST
Yes I know they are not crystal clear... So I'm ditching Victorian Days from my list Crying
Thank you for the help!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower Seed Starter Organic Gardener
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bxncbx
Jul 20, 2016 8:55 AM CST
Another way to tell is by fragrance. A clump of Nile Plum smells heavenly! I don't have it but my local botanical garden does. It was the only clump that smelled so good! Enjoy!
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jul 20, 2016 9:27 AM CST
I really don't mean to be a "Debbie Downer", but since you stated that you are using this in hybridizing, I just wanted to throw this out there...

Since you are not certain of the name of the plant you have, and it is not one that has any real distinguishing features that make it instantly recognizable ( you are having to gauge your deductions on internet photos), are you really be able to say, with 100% certainty that yes, this is the name? If the person you bought them from sent you one wrong plant, there is a possibility (even if a slight one) that the second plant may also be wrong. Orders can be and do get mixed up.

In order to accurately identify your plant, might I suggest you purchase one that IS what you think you have and gauge the blooms for sameness. Otherwise, while you may be recording your plant as 'Nile Plum', it may not actually be 'Nile Plum'. There are a few look-alikes out there.

There may come a time that you want to sell divisions of this plant, or sell seedlings or seeds by using this plant as a parent. How will you be able to say with 100% certainty that yes, what I have is 'Nile Plum'?

Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
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floota
Jul 20, 2016 9:39 AM CST
Both of these plants grew here for years, but they both left here years and years ago. The pictures I have are all older and not very good. The difference I notice is in the chalky eye/ band. On VICTORIAN DAYS, the eye has a noticeable "notch" in it and on NILE PLUM, there is no such notch. I don't know if you can see it from these not so good pictures but here goes. These pictures are over 10 years old, and all that I've kept of these two cultivars. The first one on the left is NP and the other two are VICTORIAN DAYS. Edge is also a bit more apparent on VD.
NILE PLUM and two pics of VICTORIAN DAYS.
Thumb of 2016-07-20/floota/271979 Thumb of 2016-07-20/floota/0f7713
Thumb of 2016-07-20/floota/17ba02

Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 20, 2016 9:58 AM CST
@judydu2, the problem is mine only, I don't sell anything. I just like to know what I have! Your observations are correct. But since from the same vendor I ordered both plants it's reasonable to assume one is here. I know many look similar, it's just a kind of probability count.
I don't know anyone else who sell those plants (and he still sells both) and I can't go anywhere to see them in person. As I said, it's a personal question. If I ever should gift the seedlings to someone I think they won't mind where they come from (here in Italy very few people know about daylilies, it's really different from there). I can only browse the seller's site and see what similar cultivars he has.
I don't have much chance to know it at 100%!

@floota, thank you very much. I see the same in VD. Also, VD should be less "violet" and more russet. There's a chance it could be Nile Plum the one I'm growing. Many thanks for searching through your pictures!

@bxncbx, I noticed the nice fragrance coming from it and! Hard to make a comparison but yes, it's very fragrant.
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jul 20, 2016 10:32 AM CST
cybersix said:I don't have much chance to know it at 100%!


Exactly.

Did you e-mail your photos to the seller and ask him to identify your plant?

Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 20, 2016 2:12 PM CST
Judy, I don't know if I should do it or not. This has been a mess of an order. In 2014 I ordered from him, I was waiting shipping quote and the man disappeared for two months. No answer to phone or emails. So I decided to order in another nursery, and the day after I received this second order I got his package too. Didn't even pay for it, so I wrote him and told him I would send him back the plants. He apologized and told me to keep everything and didn't ask for any money. So I don't know what to do.
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jul 20, 2016 3:40 PM CST
cybersix said:Judy, I don't know if I should do it or not. This has been a mess of an order. In 2014 I ordered from him, I was waiting shipping quote and the man disappeared for two months. No answer to phone or emails. So I decided to order in another nursery, and the day after I received this second order I got his package too. Didn't even pay for it, so I wrote him and told him I would send him back the plants. He apologized and told me to keep everything and didn't ask for any money. So I don't know what to do.


I must say your adventure with daylilies has been a real roller-coaster ride so far!

The man from whom you ordered the plant *should be the one to identify it*. After all, it did come from his garden or sales place... The circumstances surrounding the order are between him and you, and if you, for some reason, do not wish to contact him, that's your call. If you do contact him, and he can not identify it, then all the guessing in the world will not make this plant 'Nile Plum'. As it stands right now, the proper name for your plant should be 'unknown'.

Sabrina, only you can decide where you want to go with your daylilies. I know you are saying that they are only for you, but that's *right now*. Sooner or later, you WILL be sharing (gifting/trading), and probably, somewhere along the line, be selling plants and/or seeds. If, as you say, there are hardly any places for folks to buy daylilies where you live, it sounds as if you could have a tidy small business in the making, should you decide to pursue that avenue. You are saying no right now, but in a few years (maybe less) that may change. Smiling After all, daylilies grow and multiply, and now you are making seeds which will need garden space, so where are you going to plant your increases, extras, and seedlings that grow up to be big plants?

When plants are moved out of your garden, be they traded, gifted, or sold, they should carry their true name. If a plant is used in hybridizing, the records should reflect the parents' true names. Labels get lost, destroyed, or fade. It happens. Plants are mislabeled from sellers. It happens.
It's happened to all of us.

I'm just saying that when that drop-dead gorgeous bloom shows up in the future (as it might), are you going to really be comfortable saying that one of it's parents is really 'Nile Plum'? Smiling










Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 21, 2016 2:20 AM CST
Judy, I'll try to contact the seller, I found the email with my order and there was Court Magician too!
here it is


What was I thinking? I ordered many similar plants! I love violet, but I must have had a really idiot day back then!

I really don't know if I will ever sell anything, but I can see your point. It's something I'd like to try but really not now, for now all the exceeding plants will be gift for friends (and one of my friend doesn't even want to know their names).

I only have a small apartment garden with problematic soil so the only idea of digging clumps kills me.
Many thanks for your post, now we can laugh again on Court Magician! Group hug
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Sabrina
Italy, Brescia (Zone 8b)
Love daylilies and making candles!
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Europe Garden Photography Garden Ideas: Level 1
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cybersix
Jul 22, 2016 6:08 AM CST
Update: I contacted the seller.
We ended up with Nile Plum.
He said that the three cultivars are really similar but the one that has more differences is Victorian Days, and it's not the one I have (he mislabeled it).
Court Magician was not in stock when he sent the order.
So Nile Plum is the one that is growing here, we supposed. He also offered to send Court Magician or a refund for it, I said no of course. he apparently doesn't remember the story. I didn't pay for any plant so I never thought of asking him something!
Sabrina, North Italy
My blog: http://hemerocallisblog.com
Name: Judy
Louisiana (Zone 9b)
Region: Louisiana Region: Gulf Coast Hybridizer Seller of Garden Stuff
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judydu2
Jul 22, 2016 6:55 AM CST
cybersix said:
Update: I contacted the seller. (he mislabeled it).



I'm glad you took my advice. Problem solved.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Jul 22, 2016 7:00 AM CST
I am so glad you sorted this out. Mislabeled plants are so annoying and it feels so good to get a positive ID on one Hurray!

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