Roses forum: Rose nurseries

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Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Jan 6, 2017 12:21 PM CST
Now I know somewhere in the archives some of you probably answered this question before but it is a new year and I am lazy.
I did some checking on nurseries out there and Palatine is heavily sold out on roses I would consider.
This year I am, conditions allowing, doing heavy reworking of my south rose garden and I want to put in some roses that I had put in before mom died and some other just because I can.
Hybrid Tea, grandiflora and Floribunda are the only types I deal with now that my bush roses are going strong.

What nurseries do you use or recommend, I am aware of many that are there but would like to know what you use especially for the Hybrid Tea.
I cannot name all the different roses I have planted but when I see a name I do recognize it and from searching have come to the conclusion that a lot of what I had planted are now not out there.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jan 6, 2017 2:27 PM CST

Moderator

Palatine is always my first choice, but Regan Nursery has a good selection of hybrid teas.

https://www.regannursery.com/r...
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses Irises Lilies
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Steve812
Mar 5, 2017 12:09 PM CST
RpR,
Which hybrid tea roses will you plant that are reliably cold hardy to zone 3b? I garden in zone 7b and can count on one hand the Hybrid Tea roses I've found reliably resistant to our freeze-thaw cycling - though I will admit there are tens of thousands I've not tried.

I have very much enjoyed browsing their online catalog, but the one order I placed with Regan arrived in the middle of a blizzard. I tried to keep the roses cool and moist until I could work the ground, but all perished. And it was a big order. Similar problem with Garden Valley Ranch who shipped my roses in January.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Mar 5, 2017 1:35 PM CST
Steve812 said:RpR,
Which hybrid tea roses will you plant that are reliably cold hardy to zone 3b? I garden in zone 7b and can count on one hand the Hybrid Tea roses I've found reliably resistant to our freeze-thaw cycling - though I will admit there are tens of thousands I've not tried.

I have very much enjoyed browsing their online catalog, but the one order I placed with Regan arrived in the middle of a blizzard. I tried to keep the roses cool and moist until I could work the ground, but all perished. And it was a big order. Similar problem with Garden Valley Ranch who shipped my roses in January.
There is no such thing as a truly reliably cold hard Hybrid Tea rose.
How you protect them in the winter is the true secret.
It took me years to finally realize the only method that is seventy percent sure they will survive is to bury the entire rose., BUT how early you uncover in spring I found out the hard way, partly because I found out it is better to let another rag on your buttocks for not having uncovered the roses than uncover them too early.
For years I only covered my roses with leaves, but up here you need deep, 24 inches minimum, to have a better than average chance of not losing any roses and rose experts I talked to said up here, they have never heard of any one who had not lost roses during hard winters.
Since I started totally burying the roses my losses have been zero.
I do still put at least a foot of leaves over the buried roses, while on one garden I put a cloth covering directly on the dirt so leaf removal is easier in spring.
I do not know how cold it gets down there but if you have a rose that is alive but you just have gut feeling it is not totally healthy, those are the ones that will die as hard winters take their toll.
I had some I nursed along for years but when in the spring they just kept getting less and less robust in how they sprouted I would eventually just pull them rather than keep putzing around.
If you bury them, MARK them well so you will know which way they are aligned and where they are.
Up here I have black gumbo and even when I used to leave big chunks to supposedly mark location, all I would find in spring was a pretty much flat black surface so I had to guess where the stems were. I broke off too many so now I make a diagram of how they are laid out and put rods in to mark the end branches and root ball.
I also totally missed two roses which I found when they sent shoot up through the dirt.
Of those, one survived the late unburying the other went belly-up.
At that, most roses I lost were potted roses verses bare root and this was before I buried roses but during a time when I was trying something different every winter.
Some of those only lasted one year so I quit buying potted roses especially as the clearance green house that was up here closed five or so years ago.
When I was paying three to nine bucks for roses that still had price tags of fifteen to twenty some dollars it was a crap shoot and gave me a reason to go buy a new rose in the spring.


Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses Irises Lilies
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Steve812
Mar 5, 2017 7:09 PM CST
RpR said:There is no such thing as a truly reliably cold hard Hybrid Tea rose.

When I was paying three to nine bucks for roses that still had price tags of fifteen to twenty some dollars it was a crap shoot and gave me a reason to go buy a new rose in the spring.




Losing a rose is an opportunity to imagine how the next one will do in the garden. I really understand that! Nearly every rose is better before I buy it than after; better before planting than after; better before blooming than after. Sometimes, though, they surprise in the other direction.

Thanks for all the details on keeping HTs through the winter. I guess I need to give that a little more consideration. It sounds like you prune them in prep for winter insulation with leaves and earth. How short to you prune them? Are your hills of leaves head high?

I'm quite sure that I don't give roses the kind of lavish care that they woud need to go from knee height to full-production height in even a moderately long season. I'm trying to remember whether I've ever seen roses that would warrant the extra work. Maybe.

Being very lazy I was, of course, hoping for a short list of HT roses that were beautiful, fragrant, and would bloom straight through winter in Duluth. Rolling my eyes.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Mar 5, 2017 7:37 PM CST
Steve ... you do not need to do the winter protection in a zone 7 garden that Rpr must do in a zone 3 garden.

There are a lot of roses that are cane hardy in a zone 5 garden.

Yes, you do have to be careful about which roses you chose to add to your garden, but as long as your soil doesn't freeze ... and I have been told that is not a major problem in zone 7 ... you can easily grow many HTs without all of the hard work that Rpr must do in his much colder zone.

I live in the mountains of northern California and every time I've ordered from an on line nursery, they try to ship them to me too early. Grumbling So, lesson learned. You have to make a big deal about not allowing them to ship to you early.

There are so many variables that can impact the health of a rose, that without knowing more about your garden I can't really give you much information.

One of the things I have learned in this garden is to make sure that I don't plant a rose into the ground until it has a solid root mass. If I have a rose delivered in spring, I will grow it in a container to allow it to develop more roots and then plant it out in fall. So far, this has allowed me to bring the roses into winter healther than if I planted them into the ground in spring.

For modern roses, HTs, you don't prune off any of the wood until spring. They hold their nutrients in the canes. If you prune them in fall, you are setting the rose back. In Rpr's zone, that wood would not survive to provide nutrients to the plant. In your zone, if you select the right rose for your garden, its highly likely you would not lose all of the wood and the plant will use the stored nutrients through winter and in the spring.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
[Last edited by RoseBlush1 - Mar 6, 2017 11:17 AM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Mar 5, 2017 9:40 PM CST
@Steve812

Here is a link to a rose article written by a NGA member who grows beautiful roses in zone 5:

https://garden.org/ideas/view/...

Maybe Paul, @Paul2032 , can give you some advice about what roses do well in a colder zone.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Mar 5, 2017 10:56 PM CST
Steve812 said:

Losing a rose is an opportunity to imagine how the next one will do in the garden. I really understand that! Nearly every rose is better before I buy it than after; better before planting than after; better before blooming than after. Sometimes, though, they surprise in the other direction.

Thanks for all the details on keeping HTs through the winter. I guess I need to give that a little more consideration. It sounds like you prune them in prep for winter insulation with leaves and earth. How short to you prune them? Are your hills of leaves head high?

I'm quite sure that I don't give roses the kind of lavish care that they woud need to go from knee height to full-production height in even a moderately long season. I'm trying to remember whether I've ever seen roses that would warrant the extra work. Maybe.

Being very lazy I was, of course, hoping for a short list of HT roses that were beautiful, fragrant, and would bloom straight through winter in Duluth. Rolling my eyes.

I checked winter zones and Roseblush is correct you do not have to do the extreme winter prep. I do.
That said, if you get sub-zero weather or snaps of warm - freezing cold - warm - freezing cold IF you do cover your roses cover them as high up as you can .
I actually bury my roses now but when I trimmed them and just covered them with leaves, the leaf cover had to be at mimimum a foot over the bush and the higher the better. At that, in spring I still had to retrim the roses and cut off more dead cane.

The years I covered. not buried, I now literally tip and bury the entire rose, but covered with leaves very deep well over a foot above the roses and put cloth cover on top of the leaves, partly to stop them from blowing off.
Only then did a few not have to be retrimmed down.
But I had a massive job covering in fall and then uncovering in spring.
IF you cover your roses, cover them as high as you can and leave them covered till weather does not get close to freezing.
Uncovering too early in spring, and temps. hitting the twenties killed more roses for me than anything else.
If you have tall roses, three feet or more, you will just have to find out by trial how to deal with warm winter vs very cold winters.
Some people with small rose gardens around here or few widely spaced roses put a fence around the roses, approx. three feet high and fill it with leaves or some other cover.
I have seen some put a cover of burlap, or what ever cloth, never plastic, they have over that.
If you did some thing like that to what ever height you want, that should work well in your area and your canes should not need much trimming.

There is a large public rose garden in this area and they trim them, mostly hybrid tea, down to about foot, plus or minus , cover with rice hulls and then put a fabric cover over that.
I have never gone in spring when they uncover but think I will this spring just to have a look-see.


Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses Irises Lilies
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Steve812
Mar 10, 2017 10:29 AM CST
Lyn and RpR, Thanks both for the info!

If I can figure out in the next year or two how to get a hybrid tea rose to grow from 18 inches to five feet tall in a season and add at least one new fat cane, I'll consider trimming and covering. In many parts of the garden this year frost never penetrated the first inch of soil, so the practice of insulation would reduce the number of freeze-thaw cycles quite materially, even if I only use mulch. It would be nice to have some good HT roses blooming in summer.

This would be a good year to start lavishing extra attention on HTs, since I have a number of HTs arriving soon. If every winter were like this one it would not be a problem. New leaves have frozen off of Fire Fighter only three times so far this spring, but frost can occur out to mid May. (This was not a problem in zone 6B, NJ. There HTs perished quickly from blackspot and downy mildew.) In the AZ mountains every other class of rose either delays setting leaves until its safe or sustains no leaf damage in daily light frosts down to about 20F.

I tend to be a bit of a Darwinian gardener. I favor cultivars that might get along with little or no help, replacing roses that fail with different cultivars. The ones that fail are almost always HTs. Every other class of roses has a much better batting average. I might have to consider making a few exceptions and increasing the amount of water and fertilizer invested in them, but I can't make many. I have 200 roses, six of which are HTs; and I hand-water them all, which takes about 90 minutes three times a week, March through September. Not looking forward to increasing that amount of time by much.

The issue of when to prune is non-trivial here since roses are never quite fully dormant. If I follow the advice to wait to prune until spring - just before any rose begins to set leaves, that has me pruning and mounding mulch on January 8th. After that, the sap from the roots has begun to flow up into the canes. By mid February HTs start setting leaves. Sadly, the weather here on January 8th is almost always unsuitible to be out in the garden pruning roses and heaping up mulch: There's often snow on the ground. Same problem is liklely +/- three weeks.

As I mentioned, roses build up slowly in my garden and it may take three or four years to recover having been pruned so severely. Not just HT roses, but other cultivars, too. It's this that keeps me from severe pruning, and hence, from insulation.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Mar 10, 2017 10:57 AM CST
For black spot I use Serenade.
I buy the 2.5 gallon jugs.
I apply as often as I fertilize on average, some time more often especially in humid weather but I apply liberally in fall and spring.
It doe not eradicate black spot but controls it greatly.
Bayer, which now manufactures Serenade under license also produces Sonata, similar item different bug, and one gardening site recommended altering between the two each year so the bad bugs do not adapt to one type.
For ground cover I use cocoa been hulls to about two inches. They lose their color and get a semi-hard crust but underneath they stay moist and keep the ground moist.
Up here, if I put a mat over the roses before I apply leaves in fall so they do not get scooped up in spring, they will last two years with minimal touch up before they decompose to the point they need a redo.
Addendum:
Large roses; Until I started to bury I though a large HT rose was one the got over two feet high, now, one, is taller than I am and I am six feet tall.
Its large canes are bigger around than a mans thumb and the side canes are as big around as a man's little finger.
It is either normal for the variety or this is an oddball as it is not bushy in any form but more like huge sticks with flowers and leaves on the end of each stick.
It has become a problem with how to bury as it is also broad. The branches, and they are branches not canes, are amazingly flexible but it now takes a hole over six feet long and two feet wide to bury.
For once I am glad I have heavy clumping soil as I take big chunks, 12 x 6 of soil and set them on the branches to keep them down and compressed.
If it were a red rose I would be very happy but it is pink, ughh, but it has large blooms .
At this point, depending on money, I intend to redo the rose garden, add and relocate and I will see if I cannot get a picture of Frankenstein when it is in all its glory.
Not giving the South garden the attention it used to get is really starting to take its toll, so this year some thing has to be done and not just with the roses.
[Last edited by RpR - Mar 10, 2017 11:13 AM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Mar 10, 2017 11:59 AM CST
Rpr ... You garden in such extreme conditions, I really do not think most of what you do is applicable to warmer zones and actually may be harmful. I hate to say that because you are so very willing to share what you have learned to make roses survive in your conditions. Also, I have no doubt you truly love your roses.

Steve ... a discussion about when to prune was started around Feb 24 on the Feb Rose Chat thread which is more focused on warmer zones than Rpr's zone.

The new growth you are seeing in February is not really because the sap is running from the root zone. The ambient air temps are right and the light is better and this signals the plant to put on new growth, but the soil has not warmed up yet. Plants not being sentient beings, don't take all factors into consideration. The new growth you are seeing is fed by the starches stored in the canes of the HTs and other modern roses, which will soon poop out. It is not being stimulated by activity in the root zone of the plant.

Maybe @MargieNY can give you some advice about hilling up your roses for winter protection. She grows a lot of modern roses in a colder zone than yours, but not as cold as Rpr's.

A hard frost is considered 4 consecutive hours of temps of 25F or lower ... which is considered a "killing frost". A light frost is below freezing to 26F. You can find your last hard frost date on the net. I also have light frost through May, but my last hard frost date is mid-March.

As for black spot, if you send me a t-mail, I'll send you a link that will give you a lot of the more recent scientific findings on bs. Basically, there are 15 races of bs in the world. 5 of them are active in the US. Some roses are susceptible to only one race. Others are susceptible to 2 or more. This is true for both ogrs and modern roses. Not all 5 races bs active is the US are found in all regions of the US.

In the normal course of events, it takes a rose a minimum of three years to begin to reach maturity. It depends on the rose. Roses like to grow their roots first before they put on their top growth. In my garden, it takes a rose about four years before it is no longer a juvenile rose. Juvenile roses have not built up their immune systems and are more susceptible to whatever Mother Nature throws at them.

btw ... I don't garden in the snow either .... Smiling

The sun is out and I am headed out to play in the garden.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Andi
to be determined.... (Zone 6b)
Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap
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GardenQuilts
Mar 10, 2017 8:00 PM CST
I am always glad to see recommendations for Hardy hybrid teas. I haven't had any reliable hybrid teas. I have had more success with floribundas on their own roots.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Mar 10, 2017 9:50 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:

The new growth you are seeing in February is not really because the sap is running from the root zone. The ambient air temps are right and the light is better and this signals the plant to put on new growth, but the soil has not warmed up yet. Plants not being sentient beings, don't take all factors into consideration. The new growth you are seeing is fed by the starches stored in the canes of the HTs and other modern roses, which will soon poop out. It is not being stimulated by activity in the root zone of the plant. ----I will disagree with the ambient temp. part because when I pull my buried roses out of the ground they have sprouted new growth often three or more inches long, when I have left them buried weeks longer than the norm for time reasons.
The ground is cold, and as I stick my hands in it, COLD is the correct term.
When I have done this and a hard frost hits, the is when roses have died. When it gets simply into the twenties, the roses often simply sit and do not grow, nor die for up to a month, regardless of air temp.
Up here the term shock is often used, whether correct or not, that is how they act.
This can happen after they have been up and growing for over a week.


A hard frost is considered 4 consecutive hours of temps of 25F or lower ... which is considered a "killing frost". A light frost is below freezing to 26F. You can find your last hard frost date on the net. I also have light frost through May, but my last hard frost date is mid-March.---- As I said above, I have dealt with roses that have been growing in spring temps. in the seventies that have been hit by freezing temp. from simple freezing to twenties.
Any one who uses a time/cold scale and has to deal with hard frosts, will learn the hard way there IS NO RULE that is accurate.
You cannot tell a killing frost from a shocking frost, till many days later the rose that you hope was shocked starts dying.
Now up here, and this is a crap shoot, on occasion the rose will come back from the union, but more often than not that rose will never be as good as it once was.
As I once had a lot more roses, and time for them, I have left them sit after starting to pull them and find the roots were still viable.
As I said, on occasion God will smile on you and that rose but unless you have time and patience do not bet on it.


In the normal course of events, it takes a rose roots first before they put on their top growth. In my garden, it takes a rose about four years a minimum of three years to begin to reach maturity. It depends on the rose. Roses like to grow their before it is no longer a juvenile rose. ---- I find this interesting as with the exception of potted roses, which die regardless of care it seems, with bare root roses only once have I ever simply lost a rose that was newly planted, and I have had some that were not much more than a twig with a root.
As I said earlier uncovering before the last hard frost was truly past, or simply being a putz, I actually never thought stepping on a rose was the kiss of death, but it is, has been the main reason bare root roses went belly-up.
The only disease I know that actually killed several of my/mom's old roses was a root disease that dealt with for years before I figured enough was enough and pulled them, but they were very old roses and had, had it for quite some time.
Black Spot has never killed any of my roses, as I treat them and I pull the leaves and wash them down as soon as I see it.
New roses infested has been where the majority of my black spot problems have come from.


I cannot tell anyone how to deal with hot dry growing as while we have had it, we have a soil here that holds water far, far better than any in the South West.
I can tell about growing roses in sub-tropical humidity and killing freezing temps. I checked Prescott Az average and record temps.
Roses can take very hard freezes in the fall, they simply stop growing and do not die. It is recommend up here to let the ground freeze hard before covering, for disease reasons.
I used to do that.
Prescott has had sub-zero temps, that will simply kill any hybrid teas that has not been covered and protected to withstand those temperatures.
Our new whiz bang fridge has a therm. that shows our steady state freezer temp. is -2 degrees. I put a bottle of cold, cold as comes out of the faucet, water in there and it was frozen solid in less than a hour. ( It is nice to have truly cold water by your bed at night) It is possible that if Steve had a nice 4 foot rose, that was not covered hard enough to withstand that at least to a height of one foot, he would be cutting it down to a few inches above the ground the next spring, or worse pulling it.
In a dry climate, frost goes deeper, quicker. People up here have found that out when we have had a dry summer and fall but normal sub-zero winter temps. It has killed young trees and is sudden death for potted roses.
As Arizona is dry, anything below twenty, which that part of Arizona has had from Nov. to March will strike very hard.
The one thing I will tell Steve to do is water his roses heavily before covering, you do not want them to dry out as much as possible.
Another thing I found out the hard way, prepare for the worst every year. One abnormally hard winter will teach most people that fact very quickly.
Here from better homes and gardens is basically the rose trimming guide I have followed from the get-go when I read it a long, long time ago.

In general, you will be pruning just before the plant breaks dormancy after spring's final frost. This will be early in the year in warm climates, and anytime between January and April in cold climates.

If it's old roses you are tending, prune them after blooming. They bear flowers on last year's wood. Cut away the dead wood first -- it will help you "see" the shape of the plant without distraction. It's a good idea to visit a public rose garden and find specimens of roses you are growing. Note how the gardeners have pruned roses of the same type. In cold-winter climates, pruning is often reduced to one option: Simply cut back the wood that was killed in winter. In warm climates, pruning can be done at any of three levels, depending on your purpose. Severe pruning (cut to leave three or four canes, 6 to 10 inches high) produces fewer but larger blooms. Moderate pruning (five to 12 canes cut to 18 to 24 inches) makes for a larger bush. And light pruning (less than one-third of the plant is thinned out) increases the number of short-stemmed flowers that will be produced.





[Last edited by RpR - Mar 10, 2017 10:04 PM (+)]
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Mar 10, 2017 11:21 PM CST
Rpr ... when I was talking about ambient temperatures, I was talking about what was going on in Steve's garden when he saw new growth in February, not what was happening in your garden. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

We all bring different experiences and knowledge to the table and share what we know. Take what you can use and throw away the rest. There are a lot of right ways to grow roses.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses Irises Lilies
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Steve812
Mar 11, 2017 11:42 AM CST
And there are ever so many more wrong ways. I'm a good way down that list. Sighing!

I've had three days of 20F weather on April 23, 24, and 25 five or six years ago. It killed quite a few roses. There's a strong correlation between roses that have a reputation for being cold hardy through "hard freezes" and those that tolerate the phenomenon I refer to; but the simple condition of the temperature falling below X degrees for Y hours is not what I'm talking about.

We have lots of days where it's 60, 70, or even 80 degrees in February, March, and April. And because of the altitude, thin air, and low humidity, it is very common for the temperature to drop 30 or 40 degrees at night in those same months. For two months straight it might dip to 26 to 30 every night for after being around 75 during the day. Great weather for gardening not so great for the plants in them. There are very few places in the lower 48 states where the temperature crosses the freezing point more often than here. The conditions that make daily frosts common, make it common for long stretches of warmish weather to be followed by killer frosts. Late freezes following balmy spring weather can present a problem for just about everybody who lives north of the 35th parallel and more than 300 miles from a coast. It kills roses. It's not the temperature per se. It's the fact that the rose has let down its guard. Greenhouse grown plants are always set out into coolish weather for some hours a day to "harden off,", tempering their rampant growth so they tolerate light frost and near-frost conditions. The same physiological phenomenon holds for roses that have been held at a warm temperature in the garden for some time before it suddenly gets frosty. Rapid freezing, even if it is light, can kill foliage. The proximity of California to the sea all but precludes this from happening there except, possibly a bit, in the high sierras. In most garden spots in CA this sudden frost phenomenon must surely be more rare than it would be in, say, Denver, Wichita, or St Louis; Peoria, Schenectady, or Piscataway.

Lyn, I'm afraid I must disagree with you about whether a rose is harmed when it sets fresh leaves in warmish weather and then loses them to light frost one, three, six or thirteen times in a season. I claim that it does. I inspect the garden daily in the spring. I can see the new leaves sprouting, freezing, wilting, browning, falling from the plant. And I observe that plants experiencing this lose vigor, as one would expect. Sometimes they die on the first round as happens with young, unestablished plants. I lost a Playboy one March this way. One dip below freezing after a warm spell and all the fresh young purple foliage dropped, never to be seen again. Established plants, though, can be materially set back by this, too. Moonstone and Firefighter have both suffered from this phenomenon every year for five years: sprouting, freezing, sprouting, freezing, sprouting, and freezing again. When I say freeze-thaw cycling, it is this that I refer to.

Hybrid teas are more profoundly affected than any other classes. I would estimate that I've planted more than 500 cultivars over the last nine years here. A very large portion of these belonged to the hybrid tea class. I have 200 roses thriving in the garden now. Not ten of these are hybrid tea roses, and of these just four or five cultivars actually thrive. The odds of a random HT cultivar surviving in my AZ garden is apparently something like 5%. The odds of a random non-HT cultivar surviving seems to be something closer to 80%.

I can say that every cultivar behaves a little differently in terms of when it sets leaves and how resistant those leaves are to freezing. Gallicas and Damasks sail through because they wait until its safe. Ditto rugosas. Multiflora hybrids may be precocious when it comes to setting leaves but most have some frost hardiness. The china rose Hermosa seems unaffected. The tea rose Sombreuil gets by as did the never-blooming Monseuir Tillier for five years before being shovel pruned. Many David Austin roses seem to have enough gallica heritage not to have much of a problem. Similarly, Buck roses survive. But it is only the exceptional hybrid tea rose that can take this freeze-thaw cycling; and it's usually a Kordes rose. Some floribundas are as tender as HT roses. Others are just a bit tougher. Cherry Parfait and Day Breaker have done well. Most minis have enough multiflora and wichuriana genes to sail through; its dry soil that tends to weaken them here.

I must apologize for beating my drum rather loudly here, but it's the voice of a person who has sometimes felt frustrated by the fact that it is common for rose experts to hail from places where - in comparison to most places in the country - it is much, much easier to grow roses. Or, perhaps, where the set of challenges is completely different. Sometimes there appears to be an almost willful inability to hear problems not experienced in the first person.

I am awed by those who succeed with HT roses in zones 3, 4, and 5. And I am very grateful for the willingness of everyone to offer good advice!

In a private e-mail one kind reader of this forum living in Toledo suggested I trim a hybrid tea rose to waist height, invert a cheap plastic trash can over it, fill it with a loose, insulating material such as mulch, and pin it to the ground with landscape staples so it does not blow away in the wind. How to fill it? Cut the bottom most of the way off, but not quite. I love the idea. It probably wouldn't happen anywhere else, but I worry about the plant overheating and 'cooking' in the very bright winter AZ sun. Maybe I'll try cutting the bottom clean off the trash can. The light frosts rarely penetrate the mulch by two inches.

Of the following roses which five should I do this with next winter: Secret, New Zealand, Neil Diamond, Stephen's Big Purple, Moonstone, Papa Meilland, Elina, Sedona, Fire Fighter, Ingrid Bergman? I welcome suggestions.



When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Mar 11, 2017 1:27 PM CST
Steve, you certainly deal with very challenging conditions! I don't know how your area can be considered zone 7b.
Porkpal
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Mar 11, 2017 8:33 PM CST
Hi Steve ...

I have the same 40 to 50 degree difference between day temps and night temps, but actually that does not tell the whole story. It just tells you I know what you are talking about ... Smiling

I have a girlfriend who grows roses who lives up the road a piece ... same zone, same climate conditons, etc. A few major variables ... my rose garden is at the base of a slope, hers is in a more open area ... kind of like a meadow. My garden has a more westerly aspect, so it's much hotter during the summer months. Our native soil is very different. She has die back in her garden and the frost issues you have described in your garden. I don't have any die back or frost problems.

That's mountain gardening as far as I know.

I live on the inland side of the lower Klamath mountains, so I do not get the ocean influence you mentioned, but get the Valley influence.

btw ... I don't live in the Rose Heaven part of California ... Smiling Most people do not realize how big and diverse this state is and that not all of it is garden friendly.

Steve, I am not a rose expert. I may know more about the science / botany of roses and the classes of roses, as well as the lineage of roses than the average gardener, but that does not make me an expert. It just gives me an edge. It lets me know what to expect and helps me compensate for what the plant lacks genetically to survive. That's exactly what Rpr is doing. Genetically, HTs should never survive in his zone. They simply don't have the tools for it. However, they also don't know they can't survive and plants have a mandate to grow. His gardening techniques provide the roses with the environment they need to survive the cold of his zone. Not every HT will survive. Those with more tea rose in their lineage will be too tender and just won't make it. It's kind of like trying to grow oranges in Minnesota in that case.

Taking a quick look at the list of the roses at the end of your post, my guess is that most of them are too tender for your conditions. 'Secret' was one of the first roses I shovel pruned up here because the blooms blew quickly and it was an incredibly thirsty rose. I am growing 'Firefighter' and the blooms crisp quickly. I'll probably replace it next year.

Without knowing the roses you have already tried, I am very hesitant about suggesting a rose for your garden ... Smiling I can try and find my old list of roses that are cane hardy to zone 5, but that file may have been lost when a squirrel tap danced on a transformer a few years back and my computer died along with the squirrel. I may have a hard copy.

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
[Last edited by RoseBlush1 - Mar 12, 2017 12:36 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1387818 (17)
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses Irises Lilies
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Steve812
Mar 11, 2017 9:03 PM CST
RpR, I think I owe an answer to the original question about rose suppliers.

One ought to give very stong consideration to which cultivars are offered and how they meet your gardening requirements. One should consider, too, whether the roses are on their own roots or some other rootstock and how well developed and healthy the plants are on arrival. The ultimate measure, IMO, is what percentage of roses ordered make it past year five - the year when I shovel prune. Given that most of the losses I've experienced relate to untimely freeze events, most bad roses are culled out in the first year. I have infernally bad luck with all but the most vigorous roses sold in 4 inch pots and bands. People who take better care of their plants will have different experiences and different opinions.

Based on one and five year survival rates, David Austin Roses is the best supplier for my own gardening needs. Generally speaking, the roses arrive larger, they grow more vigorously, they please for longer. Palatine and Antique Rose Emporium are second and third though not always in that order. There are some other suppliers worth considering.
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I have had two wonderful experiences with David Austin Roses and one middling experience in the last eight or nine years. The first was great. The second, not so good. I complained about the second order when I placed the third order, and was quite pleased with the overall quality of that shipment. As I said above, I have the highest batting average with this supplier, evaluated at both one year and five years. David Austin roses thrive in my garden. Some have done so for nine years. I estimate that three dozen or more of the plants I have in my garden come from DA, and they constitute a good portion of the roses I'm happiest with. The climber Malvern Hills took a full five years to perform, but it is a favorite. Crocus Rose was more precocious, and may be the best shrub in my garden, though Isfahan outshines it in full bloom. I doubt that any rose in my garden is so vigorous, well branched, and healthy as Lady of Shallott. If this were the only rose supplier in existence, I could get by.

I am always most tempted by Palatine's list. The plants arrive in good shape, and they invariably grow vigorously for me in the first year. South Africa, Larissa and Caramella Fairy Tail are among my favorites. I believe I got Day Breaker from Palatine, too. Another fave. Though not quite so vigorous as those, Kordes bred HT roses have shown more vigor, better freeze-cycling resiliance, and better fungal resistance in my gardens (in general) than most HT roses from other breeders. Palatine has the largest selection of Kordes-bred HT roses, so it seems to be a good place to look. A number of the HT roses from Palatine, though, have been shovel pruned: Janet Carnochan, Duftzauber 84, Folklore to name a few.

The first supplier from which I ever bought roses from was Antique Rose Emporium, and I suppose I have an irrational attachment to them for this reason. They tend to feature old, timeless roses that survive on their own without much care, like the polyantha Marie Pavie or the HT climber Parade. Included in the ARE catalogue are several Griffith Buck roses. I'm fond of April Moon, Prairie Star, Quietness, and Winter Sunset. These cultivars are not as flashy as the best HT roses, perhaps; but they are quite beautiful and quite durable. Probably the two roses I was most impressed with in the municipal rose garden near my home in NJ were Hawkeye Belle and Carefree Beauty: vigorous, healthy, covered in bloom. Being better branched and covered with leaves, Buck roses make for better garden plants, IMO. There are lots of other good choices at ARE. Decades ago the plants they shipped were all very well developed. Some recent purchases have been disappointing in terms of size.

I've bought some nice roses from Garden Valley, but last year they sent my roses in January rather than early April! And I've never been able to complete an order for mail delivery using their web site without personal intervention by the proprietor. Irritating.

I love shopping at Rogue Valley Roses because they have so many roses that have fallen out of commerce. Sadly, though, as was true of the now defunct Vintage Gardens Roses it is truly a rare cultivar from RVR that survives my garden ministrations for a full year. I doubt one in twenty VG roses made it through year. I believe I could identify maybe three roses in my garden from VG (Crepe Rose, Centennaire des Lourdes, Noveau Monde) after having planted something upwards of two hundred over four years. James Mason and Desiree Parmentier were sourced from RVR and I'm delighted to have each in my garden; but I think upwards of four dozen plants from that supplier have died here. The great weakness, IMO, is that small, underdeveloped roses fail quickly when conditions become unfavorable. And that's just what happens unless...

For two decades I considered Heirloom Roses to be much in the same vein for having a deep and interesting catalogue while delivering puny and vulnerable plants; but at some time in the last eight or ten years they have started supplying roses with a little more vigor; and I imagine I am seeing a higher batting average, maybe fifteen or twenty five percent. I'm very pleased with their Portlandia. The Impressionist survived punishing conditions in my garden. The DA rose Charlotte sourced from Heirloom took off marvelously, and Disco Dancer is not dead, yet.

I have had some good experiences with Edmunds Roses. They primarily supply HT roses and floribundas. There are many who argue that the wheels came off the wagon when the Edmunds' family sold the business to Jung's seven or ten years ago. Perhaps it's so. I cannot say my batting average with HTs is much different with Edmunds than with, say Palatine. My Edmunds Folklore, for example, has outlasted my Palatine one. The Palatine one was ten times more glorious in year one, but it diminished over the years until it was shovel pruned. The Edmunds rose has a few more years to go before it reaches the size of year 1 Palatine, but it is growing inside the dense root system of an adolescent maple tree. Leanne Rimes motors on through all conditions. Leggy to the point of ugliness as a plant, the flowers have better form and substance than most HT's I've grown. Equally awkward but in a more tangled way is the HT Grande Dame; but few HTs are so vigorous or fragrant. I'm making another order with Edmunds this year and will report back.

I'd heard that Jackson & Perkins had gone down the tubes 'round about the 2009 crash and have not ordered from them since. Twenty some years ago they were the 800 lb gorilla of mail order roses, delivering very well developed, healthy hybrid tea roses that almost invariably went on to die of black spot or downy mildew, if my own experience was like anyone else's. Owing to an irresistable urge to grow Brigadoon, I'm doing a test order this year and will report back when I know something.

Ten or twelve years ago I got some wonderful roses from Sam Kedem in (was it?) Madison Wisconsin. They closed down their mail order business; but if the retail business is still there it might be worth a pilgrimmage from Minnesota. Lots of albas, rugosas, and roses from the Canadian Morden breeding program. Not everyone's taste, but perhaps worth considering.

It's impossible to argue simply that one supplier is better than another; but sometimes the outcome from one will please more than the outcome from another. We all have different tastes and gardening styles, and we grow roses in vastly different places. I hope this helps some readers find rose suppliers match tastes and gardening needs.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Mar 11, 2017 9:47 PM CST
Steve812 said:

I've had three days of 20F weather on April 23, 24, and 25 five or six years ago. It killed quite a few roses. There's a strong correlation between roses that have a reputation for being cold hardy through "hard freezes" and those that tolerate the phenomenon I refer to; but the simple condition of the temperature falling below X degrees for Y hours is not what I'm talking about.

We have lots of days where it's 60, 70, or even 80 degrees in February, March, and April. And because of the altitude, thin air, and low humidity, it is very common for the temperature to drop 30 or 40 degrees at night in those same months. For two months straight it might dip to 26 to 30 every night for after being around 75 during the day. Great weather for gardening not so great for the plants in them. There are very few places in the lower 48 states where the temperature crosses the freezing point more often than here. The conditions that make daily frosts common, make it common for long

In a private e-mail one kind reader of this forum living in Toledo suggested I trim a hybrid tea rose to waist height, invert a cheap plastic trash can over it, fill it with a loose, insulating material such as mulch, and pin it to the ground with landscape staples so it does not blow away in the wind. How to fill it? Cut the bottom most of the way off, but not quite. I love the idea. It probably wouldn't happen anywhere else, but I worry about the plant overheating and 'cooking' in the very bright winter AZ sun. Maybe I'll try cutting the bottom clean off the trash can. The light frosts rarely penetrate the mulch by two inches.

Of the following roses which five should I do this with next winter: Secret, New Zealand, Neil Diamond, Stephen's Big Purple, Moonstone, Papa Meilland, Elina, Sedona, Fire Fighter, Ingrid Bergman? I welcome suggestions.

Stay as far away from plastic as you can, period.
I have never used it on roses but have used plastic tub covers , with breathing holes, on some other less tender flower bushes. They are all dead.

If they made huge Styrofoam covers, rather than the little ones they make, that might be the cat's meow but I have never seen one.
I used to worry about cooking my roses when I left them covered in temp. in the seventies, but I never uncovered a rose that was dead with new growth.
As I said earlier, one year I missed two buried roses, for quite some time. One lived and one died. The one that died I broke several canes trying to get it out of the, by then from being walked on, very hard ground. I learned by that and other dork moves, broken canes are very hard on roses in spring.
I had a large burlap bag, six feet long and two feet wide made for a so called climbing rose before I realized burying was as close to a sure fire method as exists.
I would put it over the rose and dump leaves dry and wet as dry ones were to hard to force down till it was full and tie the end shut.
It worked to a point but I still had to cut dead cane off of the top as the plant dried out no matter what I did.
We moved the arbor it was growing on and we both decided it would better for grilling charcoal than all the hassle for the flowers was worth.
Two years ago, before I started burying all, I covered several roses with cocoa beans and cut the canes down to the point the where the bean hulls stopped making a higher mound and would simply spread out.
I covered those with a landscape fabric and put leaves on that.
In the spring the canes were green to the cut and I did not have to recut.
You could put, and I did this while landscaping for several owners, put chicken wire, though heavier but a fine stiffer wire is easier to handle, around a rose, (steak it up for support, I use the ones made out of rerod) or if they are in a row, around two or three at a time, and put leaves or some more moist mulch, to cover the center of the actual bush, and put hay (for this hay works better than straw as it holds moisture better) around the out side of the cage and over the top.

Of the roses you listed I have had Papa Meilland, Fire Fighter and Ingrid Bergman.
They all lasted as long as mom was alive and I gave the garden full attention; after mom died I condensed the garden and tried "new" ideas. Papa died when I ran shovel into the ground too close to the roots while moving them. The other two probably from late frost. Back when I could get cheap replacements even though I spent more time with them, I was not as careful, sadly.
I love red roses but in the two gardens I still have, I have only one red rose which my brother, who did absolutely nothing to the minus tenth degree to take care of the roses, commented recently, where did all the red roses go?
I sometimes think they died just to spite me.
OH yes, my brother, who does nothing with the existing roses, when mom was still alive, bough five David Austin roses for me to plant.
I put them next to the garage, which due to a warm car being in every night was always ten to twenty degrees higher than the outside temps., so the ground was warmer due to that and insulating snow shoveled from the side walk.
It was on he sunny side, even in winter and good soil.
Two went belly-up the first year; I gave the survivors more attention ( still not near what I did for the HTs) but within five years they were all belly-up even though the they bloomed well their last year, had a mild winter and were given close to first class treatment their last fall.
I will never buy another one.

Once I started using fabric, car covers work great but landscape fabric works well, between the roses and the leaves things started getting much better Frost kill pretty much went away with burying them, finally, totally eliminating it.
Keeping them moist, for me, was a big factor. Any part of a bush that was in contact with moist soil, mulch or leaves was green.
Canes that were still fully covered by six inches of dry oak leaves, would as often as not need to be cut back.
Oak leaves are recommended up here for insulating cover but I never had problems where wet maple or mulberry leaves were used and they hold more moisture but then that is just me.
One person whose roses I prepared for fall while landscaping, due to size and space, I did what is more close to the Minnesota Tip.
I dug a trench, and tipped the roses, one on each side, into the trench. I filled the trench to original level with dirt and then put leaves covered with hay over that even though the roses were only half buried; finally putting wood for weight and wind protection on top of that.
This was during a very hard winter with continuous temps. in the twenty some degrees below zero at night.
Even though they were not truly buried they survived just fine, although there was also a good deal of snow cover also.
You could try something similar to that with one or two of your HTs and see how they do compared to another method with several others.
One last idea from experience. Back when Eucalyptus was less expensive, I used that as the only mulch for all of my roses.
It helped control black spot and other bug and disease problems but also in the fall, I would rake it up around each bush as high as was practical.
I would then spread it out in spring and touch up where it needed it.
The roses did well those years but it decomposed faster than I thought would and even though I bought a whole pallet, it simply got too expensive.
I kept it around two inches deep in the garden.

I did find out though that rose bushes are excellent for cooking steaks over but you have to save them till you have enough for a good fire.
We have steak cook every spring and for many years, my fire was made from corn cobs and rose bushes with a little Lilac added for bulk.
Every one loved those steaks.
One the few things that made the fact potted roses were often a one year wonder not so bad.




[Last edited by RpR - Mar 11, 2017 11:39 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1387859 (19)
Long Island, NY (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
MargieNY
Mar 11, 2017 10:47 PM CST
I too, highly recommend Palatine Rose as a source for purchasing grafted roses. More than twenty yrs. ago, I purchased a number of grafted roses. The ones that did the best overall (no blackspot) of which still remain my garden, include Mister Lincoln, Double Delight and Peace all grown in filtered shade. Electron, Tineke, Golden Showers cl. and Blaze cl. grown in full sun. They were not pruned nor sprayed or hilled up. My main interest at that time was focused on irises. Around 2012 having retired, I had more time to dedicate to my garden and I redirected my attention to roses. But in the back of my mind, I could still recall the frustration and disappointment on my father's face from trying to prevent blackspot on the roses in my childhood garden. My quest was to find disease resistant roses that would do well in my climate. Luckily, I came upon a list of roses grown in my vicinity at the Peggy Rockefeller Rose Garden. The curator of this garden at one time was Peter Kukielski. Peter is the author of the book entitled "Roses Without Chemicals". Here's an article I wrote about this book:
https://garden.org/ideas/view/.... About the same time frame, I was informed that in 2000 Kordes had tested their roses in their own fields. And, apparently, all the Kordes roses from 2002 to date are disease resistant. If you look through my NGA plant list you will see lots of Kordes roses with good reason. Success at last! I do have a few roses that require some special care to control blackspot. These includes: Midnight Blue, Scentimental and Charles De Gaulle (just a tiny bit). I have found Oxidate - OMRI (organic) to be a effective bactericide and fungicide here - it works immediately on contact.
In reference to winterizing roses on Long Island, I hill up my roses about 8 inches high with top soil, than a couple shovelfuls of SOS ( horse manure, fine wood shavings, hay and grass clippings) http://sosforyoursoil.com/and finally top them off with either cedar mulch or bumper crop http://coastofmaine.com/produc....
I believe each rose through observation has a story to tell. By unraveling it's secrets, lessons can be learned. This new understanding can aid you and ultimately result in growing roses to their optimal potential.


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