Daylilies forum: Looking for a nice white tet to cross.

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Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
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Gleni
Jan 21, 2017 7:04 AM CST
I am looking for a nice white tetraploid to use in hybridizing. It must be SEV or EV - and very much rust resistant. Any recommendations? I have a couple of good white dips but finding a good tet has been elusive.
Name: Mike
Hazel Crest, IL (Zone 5b)
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Hazelcrestmikeb
Jan 21, 2017 7:49 AM CST
Glen, I don't know about rust but Boundless Beauty is a good one.
Thumb of 2017-01-21/Hazelcrestmikeb/da3bc4

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Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Jan 21, 2017 5:43 PM CST
Welcome to the club! When you find one (that has a good flower and also very good rust resistance), please let the rest of us know. Rolling my eyes.

I've been making some crosses with 'December Wedding', which (for my taste) has a very nice flower. It supposedly has some rust resistance, though that can be difficult to evaluate here (it is not near the rusty daylilies).



'Ballerina on Ice' supposedly has some rust resistance. I've been using it in crosses, though the bloom is smaller and the scape shorter than I like.



I have read that 'Wonder of It All' has good rust resistance, but that has not been my experience.

So much for the tets. If rust resistance is your primary concern, you might consider trying some of the dips instead, including Mike Huben ones. While not a Huben daylily (it is a grandparent of his 'Early and Often', and so in the background of his lines), 'Tuscawilla Tranquility' has had good rust resistance here (and the database gives it a 1.3 for resistance). Again, much shorter and smaller than I like, but (wrt rust resistance) we beggars can't be choosers. Glare



One thing you may have to do is a "rescue operation".... Find a nice near-white tet daylily that you like, then cross it (for at least a couple of generations) against something that has good rust resistance. Eventually you should get something that has resistance. As to what to cross it with...iirc someone here said that 'Bela Lugosi' (which has a 1.5 rust resistance rating) sometimes throws near-whites, so that might be a starting point. (I acquired that plant solely for that reason, btw... no seed(ling)s yet.)

Good luck!



It's daylily season!
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jan 22, 2017 11:21 AM CST
What about President Ronald Reagan?:
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'President Ronald Reagan')



I don't own it, but I've heard a lot of good things about it.
[Last edited by DogsNDaylilies - Jan 22, 2017 11:27 AM (+)]
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Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jan 22, 2017 11:25 AM CST
...Or Knights in White Satin...



It says it shows susceptibility to rust in the database (no precise rating given, though), but it is a gorgeous flower, I have seen it in person and it is one I am likely to get in the next year or two. It meets your other requirements.
Name: Mike
Hazel Crest, IL (Zone 5b)
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Hazelcrestmikeb
Jan 22, 2017 12:01 PM CST
Glen and DND Knights In White Satin is indeed a good one here that also rebloom.
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jan 22, 2017 2:07 PM CST
'Knights in White Satin' is showing a 3.0 rating. It is so hard to find reliable rust rating info on any any daylily it seems after about 2000. I am just having to buy and hope as far as rust ratings go, would love for the reviews to have more info, but so many people really don't have to be concerned with rust.
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Jan 22, 2017 5:57 PM CST
'Knights in White Satin' is the pollen parent of 'December Wedding'. It has a database rust score of 3.0. It has been my experience that daylilies with a score of 3.0 are pretty rusty, so I wouldn't touch it.

'December Wedding' has been a beautiful daylily here, it has rebloomed, and it has had no rust yet (it has been here maybe 3 years).

This is what Ted Petit had to say about 'December Wedding' :

(Tacia Marie x Knights in White Satin) Sev. 7" fl. 35" sc. M 20 buds. Fertile both ways. The large flowers of DECEMBER WEDDING are a near white with a large green throat. Surrounding the petals are looping ruffled gold edges. Since we breed for rust resistance in our plants, we used Tacia Marie heavily in our white lines. We also like the large size of Knights in White Satin, so it was a natural cross. December Wedding is an important addition to our large, showy white flowers. Not only are these clear, clean, near-white flowers large and showy, they are presented on tall, 35” scapes. A beautiful flower and important breeder.

Here is what Peat had to say about his introduction 'Tacia Marie':

* ‘Tacia Marie’ (Peat, ‘05) - Sev. - Fr. EMRe. 30 in. sc.; 6.5 in. fl. 3 way branching with 21+ buds. A very near white flower with nicely ruffled wire gold edge. A striking apple green throat is enhanced by a bright yellow watermark. Totally consistent blooms every day. Heavily diamond dusted petals and sepals when caught in the sun. This flower was named for Tony & Susie Thompson's dearly departed near white puppy-dog at their request. THese flowers are an important hybridizing break, because they do not show the great susceptibility to rust that plagues most modern gold edged whites. ‘Tetra. Champagne Elegance' X 'Winter Palace'.

I don't grow 'Tacia Marie' so I have no knowledge one way or the other wrt its rust resistance. However, its pod parent is tet 'Champagne Elegance', and the diploid CE has been rust resistant here. (It is no longer here because the foliage annoyingly stuck upright, one petal tended to not lay properly, and the blooms were often too close down to (and occasionally in) the foliage.)

So you could try 'Tacia Marie', or you could try its child 'December Wedding', or you could research children of these daylilies (with a jaundiced eye on their other parents) but if it's rust resistance that you want, I advise that you stay away from 'Knights in White Satin'.

It's daylily season!
Name: Glen Ingram
Macleay Is, Qld, Australia (Zone 12a)
Grey-headed Flying-foxes
Region: Australia Annuals Canning and food preservation Herbs Tropicals Foliage Fan
Plays in the sandbox Cactus and Succulents Garden Photography Hybridizer Composter Sedums
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Gleni
Jan 22, 2017 11:30 PM CST
Thank you. Thank you. I am busily taking notes! You are wonderful!!! Lovey dubby

What do you think of SC White Chocolate? Is it white enough, too?
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jan 23, 2017 12:45 AM CST
Amusing I was looking for the same thing, after a dozen or so web sites/nurseries I came up with nothing in Australia.....Granted I may be pickier with what I deem white (ie no tint of other colour)
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
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Polymerous
Jan 23, 2017 1:43 AM CST
I've never grown 'Space Coast White Chocolate'. From the image, the sepals look like they might be prone to cupping, which I find an annoying fault ('Beautiful Edgings' does that here).

Fwiw, the near-white tets that I grow (or have grown) all have some degree of color when placed next to something really white, like Shasta Daisies or white pelargoniums.

Somebody (maybe Mike Huben, maybe someone else, I can't recall) once pointed out that near-white dips tend to be whiter than the near-white tets.

I think there was also a recent Daylily Journal article, which made a color comparison (petal-wise?) among near-white daylilies. I can't recall off-hand, though, which the authors thought were the whitest ones.
It's daylily season!
Name: Dnd
SE Michigan (Zone 6a)
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DogsNDaylilies
Jan 23, 2017 12:33 PM CST
Protoavis said:Granted I may be pickier with what I deem white (ie no tint of other colour)


...if you find this, let me know! If someone has managed to hybridize one without any tint of color, they ought to be raking in the dough at this point! Big Grin Every daylily has atleast a tint of some other color, which is why all 'white' daylilies (currently) are really near-whites. There might be some days (or hours of a day) where a particular bloom might look pure white because of the bright, hot sun or something....but insofar as I'm aware, they all have a peach, yellow, green, pink, lavender, or grey tint to them.
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
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Polymerous
Jan 23, 2017 1:33 PM CST
What Dnd said...

As an aside, I have several near-white daylilies in my Moon Garden, where the white flowers of other plants clearly show the pale coloration of the near-white daylilies. I don't consider this a fault or flaw (in the Moon Garden theme) though... The subtle coloration of these daylilies adds to the beauty of that part of the garden during the day (much as the variegated and lime or lemon foliaged licorice plants do), yet the daylilies are still "white" enough that they do their thing (stand out) during the low light times of dusk, pre-dawn, and on full moon nights.

This is an older thread that I started over in the Perennials Forum. The original post shows some images of daylilies in my Moon Garden, both at dusk and also during the day. The dusk images show that the near-white daylilies stand out (as intended), while the daytime images show that there is really a lot of color in the near-white daylilies. The thread "Moon Gardens" in Perennials forum

It's daylily season!
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jan 23, 2017 2:52 PM CST
DogsNDaylilies said:
Every daylily has atleast a tint of some other color, which is why all 'white' daylilies (currently) are really near-whites.


damn it!

Although now highlights my search of futility :\

Guess I'll go look again, possibility find the best lavender and the best green and/or yellow and cross those...being opposite colours, if we all cross our fingers it may work like toner for hair and cancel the tint (it probably won't but worth a try).
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Polymerous
Jan 23, 2017 4:32 PM CST
More likely imo you'll get mud...
It's daylily season!
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jan 23, 2017 9:15 PM CST
From two whites that have different tints?

Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Greg Bogard
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7a)
Sscape
Jan 23, 2017 11:35 PM CST
Tacia Marie Is supposed to be highly rust resistant (according to the hybridizer), and has a nice flower a good scape. I have been looking for it for a year and have not found it available. Good luck.
Scot A Elwood I have found to have good rust resistance.
Great White resists it pretty well, too. However, it does not breed easily.
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
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Polymerous
Jan 23, 2017 11:39 PM CST
Hmm, I misunderstood your statement, to the effect that you would be crossing a lavender daylily with a green or green-yellow daylily. D'Oh!

I still think, though, that you would end up with some degree of mud, even if these were near-white daylilies that you were crossing.

I think that instead, I would rather try going the route of two near-whites that are pink-ish, and the clearer the color the better. That, or two near-whites that are lavender-ish, but again with emphasis on some degree of clarity in the parent plants. (I haven't made up my mind if 'December Wedding' is more pink or more melon in its color.)

Or (if you could find one with some degree of rust resistance) you could use as a starting point a tet that at least bleaches out by the end of the day to a fairly white color.

Pat Stamile had this to say about his introduction 'White Mountain' :

*WHITE MOUNTAIN (Trimmer) 2007

[(VICTORIAN LACE x MICHAEL MILLER) X SPECTRAL ELEGANCE]

28" EM Re EV 6" TET

WHITE MOUNTAIN is Pat Stamile's best white to date. While it does have just a tinge of pink, at the end of the day it is snow white. One of the most difficult things about white breeding is to get the flowers to remain "fancy”. You can get them paper white but they will be narrow petalled and not have a ruffle on them. WHITE MOUNTAIN is simply the culmination of years of trying to make white daylilies that are both beautiful flowers and great garden plants. A must for those breeding white daylilies or having a white garden and a strong recommendation for all daylily growers who miss the cooling effect of white in the garden. Fertile both ways with 4-way branching and 28 buds.


I have 'White Mountain', but I have only seen a few blooms on it last year, thanks to deer predation in previous years. I haven't seen enough of it to form an opinion on either color or rust resistance. I do note that its grandparents VL and MM both have bad reputations for rust susceptibility. 'Spectral Elegance' looks from its parentage that it might have some resistance, so who knows how resistant or susceptible 'White Mountain' is. Confused

(But now that I've looked all of this up, I will have to consider attempting a cross this season between 'December Wedding' and 'White Mountain'. Whistling )
It's daylily season!
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Polymerous
Jan 23, 2017 11:43 PM CST
Per the database, 'Great White' has terrible rust resistance... it is susceptible with a score of 3.8. 'Scot A. Elwood' being a child of 'Great White', I'd be very cautious.

Speaking of breeding behavior, though...

Last summer I tried several crosses with 'December Wedding'. The pollen is fertile, but I did have some difficulty setting pods on it. Iirc, the only pods that I managed to set were all set at the end of the season, on the rebloom scapes.

It's daylily season!
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Image
Polymerous
Jan 24, 2017 12:30 AM CST
I was just looking at my list of plants, and had my memory jogged on 'Winter Wedding'. It has a fairly white (for a near-white tet) flower and it is an EMO. The downside of the plant is that it doesn't have great bud count or branching, it has had some rust here (not as bad as 'Wonder of It All', but...), and (if you don't care for it) the flowers are creped. (Not to mention that the blooms don't have the fantastic ruffling and edges that other near-white tets have.)


early morning images, blooms not yet fully open

I don't have it so I can't speak for whiteness or rust resistance, but 'Winter Wedding' has one child plant, 'Hazel Ballard', which might have breeding possibilities. Per the hybridizer:

*HAZEL BALLARD (Kirchhoff, D) 2002

(SEEDLING X WINTER WEDDING)

30" ML Re Ext SEV 5.75" TET

Judge for yourself whether or not this is one of the brightest spots in the garden! Subtly touched cream, this bright, off-white daylily with a yellow to green throat is breathtaking in clump strength. The form is full with wide, lightly ruffled, overlapped segments. Texture is lightly creped and diamond dusted. Substance and color are sunfast. Strongly recurrent, dazzling mounds of white blooms, on 4 way-branched scapes with 28-33 buds.


Sterrett Gardens may have it available for sale. http://www.sterrettgardens.com...

(Dang... just what I need... another near-white tet....)
It's daylily season!

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