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Nov 9, 2011 2:26 AM CST
|I met this Brazilian on my way back home along a road, it was getting dark..|
Some flowers where yellow others a deep orange on the same tree..
Nov 9, 2011 9:20 AM CST
|The flowers are like Senna multijuga, now we need to find the leaves.|
Senna spectabilis is close..
Senna spectabilis var. spectabilis
Could be Senna spectabilis var. excelsa
Nov 9, 2011 12:04 PM CST
|Senna spectabilis var. excelsa really looks spot on Janet! |
Thank you so much, it is always fascinating to follow you in your search!
I wouldn't know where to start when not even have a clue of the family..
Nov 9, 2011 12:32 PM CST
|There's so many different Senna specis Myriam, I was trying to find some more photos showing the leaves better but I can find only similar leaves and flowers. |
I thought Senna corymbosa might be a candidate, but the leaves maybe don't look right.
I found flowers with the same shape, Senna barronfieldii but it's not in Brazil even if the leaves don't match.
Senna septemptrionalis is in Brazil, the leaves are glossy but I'm not sure about the flowers.
The flower habit is more like Senna corymbosa, I'm really not sure!
Nov 9, 2011 12:48 PM CST
|Senna corymbosa doesn't look like nor feel like it, looks too shrub like and the leaves don't really match either.|
Senna baronnfieldii has the same flowers but like you say has entirely different leaves..
Senna septemptrionalis has similar leaves but less dense flower clusters, I'm still thinking Senna spectabilis var. excelsa..
Nov 9, 2011 1:05 PM CST
|The one photo of Senna spectabilis var. excelsa in which you could see the leaves behind the flowers did look correct to me too Myriam, but the fuller shots showed longer leaf stems. I haven't been able to find any other photos of it.|
Senna corymbosa has shorter leaf stems.. but they are only up to 3m tall according to florasbs
Nov 9, 2011 1:40 PM CST
|The tree was definite much taller than 3 m Janet, it was towering high above my head, I guess around 7-8m.. but the leaves do look like Senna corymbosa..|
I'm doubting now too about Senna spectabilis var. excelsa, the leaves stems look indeed much longer than in my picture...
I made a crop of the leaf part..
Nov 9, 2011 3:02 PM CST
|I don't think it's S. corymbosa. Senna septemtrionalis is possible, it grows to 6.5 metres..|
Look at the copied details on this leaf photo, it says "Weed tree in thickets in reed country, and 8 metres high!
The leaf description.. I don't think we can see the petiolar nectaries but the rest fits.
"Leaflets 3-4 (5) pairs, the distal ones larger, broadly ovate to lanceolate, (3.5-) 4.5-10.5 cm long, (1.1-) 1.4-3.5 cm wide, glabrous, lower surface pale, apex acuminate or caudate, base obliquely rounded or cuneate, petiolar nectaries between all pairs or all but the distal pair of leaflets, none contiguous to pulvinus, the lowest one 1-2 mm long, stipules submembranous, narrowly lanceolate, 3-7 mm long, caducous"
I'm trying to understand the flower description, I noticed yours only has one long filament that I can see anyway, the photos I've looked at have two. The petals seem to be variable.
"filaments of 4 median stamens 1.3-2.2 mm long, those of 2 abaxial stamens dilated, ribbon-like, 7-10.5 mm long, that of abaxial central stamen 2-4 mm long."
Nov 9, 2011 11:48 PM CST
|I have the impression that the flowers of Senna septemtrionalis look too different from mine, Janet.|
I found a detailed picture of the flower of S.septemtrionalis
A crop for comparison..
Nov 10, 2011 7:09 AM CST
|I thought so too Myriam, it has two extra filaments either side of the centre thing which may be the pistle. Even though the flower description indicates shape etc is variable I think what we see in the middle can give a clue.|
The first part of the flower description:
Flowers in racemes (1.5-) 2.5-8 cm long, pedicels (12-) 15-25 mm long, bracts sub-membranous, linear, lanceolate, or subulate, (1.5-) 2-4.5 mm long, caducous as pedicels begin to elongate; calyx lobes yellowish green, yellowish brown, or completely yellow, the outer ones relatively firm, ovate-elliptic, 4-6.5 mm long, the inner ones submembranous, oblong-obovate or suborbicular, 6.5-10 mm long; petals bright yellow, the standard obovate to obovate-flabellate, deeply emarginate, the others obovate, the longest petal 12-16 mm long; staminodes 3, obovate or suborbicular, (1.7-) 2-2.6 mm long
That just about covers all shapes! "staminoids 3" is the part which I think eliminates it.
More searching is in order, the good thing is the more searching you do the more google brings up so who knows, we might yet find it! A systematic search of the list coming up.
Nov 10, 2011 7:49 PM CST
|I started to go through the list which is very long! I may have found it, in fact I feel almost certain I have! The flower petals are the same shape and colour, the fleshy things at the sides of the longer 'pistil' on yours look to have shrunk but they are there, I think they are the "abaxial stamens". It's the petal shape which matches so well as well as the colour, I have found a lot of species but none have quite had this petal shape.|
Unfortunately the photographer didn't post any more photos! You can see a leaf which looks dark green and glossy, could easily be the correct shape as we are viewing it from the tip end. Most I have looked at have been a greyish blue and mostly smaller other than those we have looked at with similar leaves.
Senna angulata var. miscadena (not miscadenia as put) Note the photo was taken in Rio de Janeiro!
Distribution puts Senna angulata right at the southernmost area where you were!
Here's where herbarium specimens are handy! Look at the first photo of Senna angulata, the leaf shape matches well if you imagine yours squashed flat (it has obviously been previously misnamed). Look at the bottom left leaf, even the leaf veins match yours!
It has to be either Senna angulata or Senna angulata var. miscadena, if you agree with this I would call it Senna angulata and put a note saying it's possibly var. miscadena but there is also var. angulata.
Or, if you feel very brave, I would go for Senna angulata var. miscadena as the location is spot on and the flowers match, the photographer must have known the species or they would not have put the variety name.
I took out the 'var.' in the search, look what I found!
Those leaves are correct!
I got the link from this site with more links..
There's a drawing of the leaves on a pdf, fig. 7.. notice there's two leaves at the end of the leaf stem and two before, just like yours!
Nov 10, 2011 7:56 PM CST
|There's a magnifier at the bottom of the herbarium leaves specimen, use that and you can see the arrangement of the leaves is a perfect match!|
Nov 11, 2011 2:13 AM CST
| Wow, Janet! Astonishing!|
Senna angulata var. miscadena does look a perfect match indeed, there is only one problem, it seems to be a shrub of only 1,5 tall.
The alternative, Senna angulata instead can grow into a large tree according to this info:
So maybe it would be safer to chose the last one?
Thanks so much for your hard work!
Nov 11, 2011 7:15 AM CST
|I was wondering about the height Myriam, it was going through my head when I went to bed but it was late.|
I'm not sure what I'm reading there, as it's a specimen it could have been from a young tree of that size. I find it difficult to imagine a var. of a species would be so different in height, I'm trying to find out more but at the moment it seems I may have exhausted my options. There's more specimens of the same species but none have given the height, so it is possible it was from a young tree.
The notes with each specimen appear to be only collectors notes of the tree the specimen came from, and other details they might have added such as location so I wouldn't take that as a maximum height.
I have found more by searching for the collectors name and details, will see what I can find but at the moment I'm still with Senna angulata var. miscadena.
Nov 11, 2011 7:37 AM CST
|OK, I have found more which are possibles! Senna macranthera var. macranthera which has a more recent collection date, the leaves look good for that too and the flowers even though dried look much like yours! Senna neglecta looks possible too!|
If the search doesn't show, select country Brazil, 'any' in all fields but the genus where you can select Senna.. there's three pages.
Senna occidentalis and Senna racemosa var. racemosa have similar leaves but appear to have more leaves per stem.
More research, see if I can find some more flower photos.
Nov 11, 2011 7:52 AM CST
|I found the "Martius project Flora Brasiliensis" on the links on the Belgain Botanical Garden site which I found on wiki under Herbarium Martii! But I see it's linked on wiki too.. as well as other interesting links.|
Martius was one of the founders of Flora Brasiliensis,
The entire archives, with detailed lists for many of Martius’ acquisitions, are also conserved in the herbarium of the National Botanic Garden of Belgium.
Maybe you could get help from the NBG of Belgium Myriam!
We can check out Flora Brasiliensis to see what we can find there even if we couldn't translate it, some things such as a height can be recognised.
Nov 11, 2011 7:56 AM CST
|Wooooow! Look what I found! There's a lot more book titles in the drop down box which has the book title in..|
THE BRAZILIAN HERBARIUM OF MAXIMILIAN,
PRINCE OF WIED
Nov 11, 2011 8:24 AM CST
|There is keys on Flora brasiliense, genus Cassia family Leguminosae as they were called. You can select the page from the right side, page 2 has macrantha leaf decriptions but without specimens this might prove difficult unless we can find the flowers. Also, some might have been changed since then.|
Nov 11, 2011 9:02 AM CST
|Now that I've searhed for Senna macranthera I got results on flick which I didn't get before when searching flckr for just Senna..|
"Senna macranthera (DC. ex Collad.) H.S.Irwin & Barneby
Local: Lago Sul, Brasília, Brasil.
Ref.: Lorenzi, H. Árvores Brasileiras. Vol 1. 5ª edição. Plantarum, 2008."
It's hard to say if the foliage of Senna macranthera matches, it looks shorter and more rounded..
More of Senna macrantha..
Senna macranthera var. striata leaves look too rounded too..
Nov 11, 2011 9:14 AM CST
|Leaves of Senna racemosa don't match.. but still have to find var. racemosa. There isn't a S. racemosa var. racemosa in the updated Flora brasilense so we should only be looking at updated records and not original names which some might be.|
Senna neglecta is on FloraSBS, leaves don't match..
I found a photo of Senna angulata leaves! They don't match either!
On the GRIN link..
It's still looking good for Senna var. miscadena