Lilies forum: Rachel Pappo

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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 5, 2017 7:31 PM CST
Does anyone know what Rachel pappo looks like. It is in the hybridizing of Bellingham Star and Levern Frieman (aka miss Feya) and it's 3/4 oriental, 1/4 Henryi. Curious because of the differences in those two cultivars.
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
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pardalinum
Feb 5, 2017 8:24 PM CST

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Just what little that is in the register description: apricot colored,lighter towards the tips. Sounds like it is most similar to Bellingham Star. I don't recall ever seeing a photo of it.
Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
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Nhra_20
Feb 5, 2017 8:26 PM CST
I think it looks similar to tom pouce if I'm not mistaken. Correction. I was mistaken. I was thinking of a different lily
[Last edited by Nhra_20 - Feb 5, 2017 8:27 PM (+)]
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Name: Jim
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (Zone 3a)
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JimSaskatoon
Feb 7, 2017 10:22 PM CST
Rachel Pappo - perhaps it looks more like Apricot Supreme.
It seems to me that there is a bit of a mystery concerning the origin of Rachel Pappo??
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 8, 2017 1:22 PM CST
Here's two links if you read the description of these bulbs.

http://www.bdlilies.com/l9300....

http://www.bdlilies.com/9004.h...

Rachel pappo is mentioned in both of these and from what I can gather is a tetra, 3/4 oriental, 1/4 Henryi.
Name: Jim
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (Zone 3a)
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JimSaskatoon
Feb 8, 2017 2:52 PM CST
It still is a bit confusing in that Apricot supreme is referred to as an asiatic in the article/description of LaVern Friemann aka Miss Freya and yet is said to involve Rachel Pappo in its background as described in the Lily Register. I know a few of us here in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan had it a number of years ago now and it simply faded away/disappeared after only a year or two. I know at the time I thought this was due to its genetic background i.e. having oriental genes and therefore not hardy here. All of which still leaves a bit of confusion. That said I think I would like to order the two lilies mentioned - LaVern Friemann and LF-1. I would have to probably grow them in a pot and winter protect them though. I would like to try using them with my aurelian henryi type lily seedlings.
Interesting thread!
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 8, 2017 4:12 PM CST
Jim I have them both. The levern frieman blooms very late and it is one of my favorites. Big dark red blooms and the oriental like leaves are the widest I've seen on any lily. Seems hardy for me. It's also call miss Feya after the Dutch started culturing it. Not fertile from what I can tell.


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LF 1 or Bellingham star has proven pollen fertile on some div 6.

The reason I started this thread is I am curious how the red doesn't come through considering how black beauty is a grandparent of LF 1.
Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
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Nhra_20
Feb 8, 2017 4:24 PM CST
Jim Ault and I have talked about LF-1. His suggestion about it is to not believe the classification of it being an OT. but instead an Aurelian
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 8, 2017 8:15 PM CST
Dave, what lead Jim to think of it as an Aurelian and not an OT?
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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magnolialover
Feb 8, 2017 9:22 PM CST

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LF-1 looks very Aurelian, that's for sure. There is a strong presence of Aurelian in those genes, whatever the case may be. Would be an interesting one to dissect down to the DNA wouldn't it?
Tracey
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Feb 8, 2017 10:56 PM CST
Joebass said:Dave, what lead Jim to think of it as an Aurelian and not an OT?


All that 'red' came from somewhere, Dave. Mine shows an even darker apricot (more red), probably due to a difference in surface texture between Joe's and mine.


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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
Hybridizer Daylilies Garden Photography Dog Lover Lilies Irises
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Nhra_20
Feb 9, 2017 1:17 AM CST
Jims theory is based on crosses made and attempted. Nearly every time he had crossed with an aurelian, seed was set. Nothing when tried with an OT. I had asked him your question Joe,and this was his response.

"Seeing is believing!  See the attached spreadsheet of all the crosses I've made with 'LF-1' over the years.  Thousands of seed from crosses with various 2N Aurelians and trumpets, nary any with OTs (highlighted the latter in yellow).  I've had conversations with Calvin Helsley and others in the past that all had come to the same conclusion.  The progeny I've used from these 2N crosses have been fertile with other 2N Aurelians etc as well.

What I've bloomed from LF-1 have typically shown a henryi influence in foliage, flower shape and color.  LF-1 is orange colored but carries a recessive yellow gene as when crossed with yellow henryi or yellow aurelians the progeny come back half and half orange to yellow.  Weak stems like henryi as well, alas.

You may keep and/or share this data if of any





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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 9, 2017 6:39 AM CST
Good stuff Dave! I certainly wouldn't rule it out completely. You should get Jim to join us in the forums here! I had similar results this year. There is another lily listed as an OT that I believe is only Aurelian and that is Gold Class.


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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
Hybridizer Daylilies Garden Photography Dog Lover Lilies Irises
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Nhra_20
Feb 9, 2017 6:50 AM CST
I have planted both of these last fall. Me personally, I think both look more aurelian than OT. But maybe it's a case of being more aurelian with really weak oriental genes mixed in.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 9, 2017 7:26 AM CST
That's also a good point Dave! I have had conversations with Johan Mak and he has stated that he believes that in first generation wide crosses, he believes that 75 percent or more of the genes are from the pod parent.
Name: Jim
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (Zone 3a)
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JimSaskatoon
Feb 9, 2017 11:00 AM CST
Joe, that statement by Johan Mak about first generation wide crosses is definitely something to sit and think back on.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Feb 9, 2017 2:00 PM CST
I agree Jim!
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Feb 9, 2017 8:54 PM CST
Didn't Rachel Pappo emerge as a hybrid from the Imperial Crimson (group) at OBF in the late 1950's or was the original obtained from a New Zealand hybridizer and brought to OBF? Imperial Crimson was a deep crimson red. There were others in the Imperial groups too, like Imperial yellow, Imperial Pink, etc., all downstream hybrids from L. parkmanii, all .categorized as Div. VII, however. We'll probably never know if any of these played a part or what their fertility relationship might have led to. But,as far as apricot color of Bellingham star goes, I think it's pretty much representative of what to expect if the 1/4th henryi was pod parent L. henryi, var. citrinum.

Some added notes: Last summer I pollenated Bellingham Star with Betty Sturley pollen from Tracey. I got good fertilization and the pods were healthy, fat and nice and solid. I could see and feel the impressions of good seed inside. But one night as I was starting Fall clean up, I left part of the fence down and a deer ate them. The sad part was that I had intended to cut the stems that evening but was tired out and decided to play the odds of nothing happening.

I also tried pollenating with pollen from King Kong and Species rubrum, var. Aurea. Neither of these took hold. I've got dozens of Div. VI diploids I could try pollen from. Smiling

Name: Jim
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan (Zone 3a)
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JimSaskatoon
Feb 9, 2017 10:44 PM CST
Oh boy, too bad about the lost seed to the deer, Lorn. You can always try the cross again - definitely try the cross again!
Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
Hybridizer Daylilies Garden Photography Dog Lover Lilies Irises
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Nhra_20
Feb 9, 2017 10:57 PM CST
Reminds me I gotta put fencing up for rabbits at my house, then probably some kind of fencing up at the lily bed at my mother in laws. Though they said they have never seen a deer out there in 2 years.

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