Plant Database forum: Aloe humilis x needs a name change (couple of issues)

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Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
Cactus and Succulents Seed Starter Foliage Fan Xeriscape Container Gardener Hummingbirder
Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Region: Mexico Plant Identifier Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator
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Baja_Costero
Feb 9, 2017 5:00 PM CST
There is an entry here with an invalid name and I'm not quite sure how to resolve it. Would appreciate help from an admin, plus input from @sunkissed and @Lalambchop1, who have included pictures of the plant. This post is a bit long but I want to leave a complete record in the forums if possible.

Here is the current name and database entry.

Aloe (Aloe humilis Spineless Hedgehog™)
Trade Name: Spineless Hedgehog™
Cultivar name: 'Andhogp'

Aloe Spineless Hedgehog™

If you search the net for the relevant terms you will arrive at a number of pages listing the plant as follows.

Aloe x humilis 'ANDHOGP' Spineless Hedgehog™

for example

http://plantsnouveau.com/plant...

And here where it is being mass produced under the same name.

http://www.ag3inc.com/PlantDet...

I don't think the plant is actually Aloe humilis but a hybrid of Aloe humilis, and most likely with Aloe arborescens, judging by the flower and the leaves. Which puts it in the neighborhood of Aloe x spinosissima (humilis x arborescens), but it's very un-spiny compared to the spinosissima I have (thus the name "spineless hedgehog"?). I'm guessing the parent clone of humilis used for the hybrid was relatively un-spiny (there is some variation in that respect and my clone is particularly spiny).

I would like to propose the name be changed to Aloe "ANDHOGP" (presumably in all caps if that is allowed) and treated as a hybrid of humilis, rather than a cultivar of humilis. If someone knows better than me about the source, please speak up. I'm not quite sure how to execute the changes in the most inclusive way. And of course I may have misunderstood what I have read. Smiling

A secondary issue (probably relating to the source of what's on the web): using a trademarked name for a trade name is backward logic by the language of patents and trademarks. You might trademark a series of plants, but when you use a trademarked term as a trade name for a specific plant, you essentially invalidate the trademark because you have put it in common usage. For example escalator. More info here. Again, please help me if I misunderstand.

https://www.plantdelights.com/...

Here are spinosissima and humilis for comparison. The raceme on humilis is much shorter and the lower flowers start to drop before the rest of the raceme is fully formed.

Thumb of 2017-02-09/Baja_Costero/b075a6 Thumb of 2017-02-09/Baja_Costero/de0a93
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - Feb 9, 2017 5:16 PM (+)]
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Name: Leslie
Chapin, SC (Zone 7b)
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Lalambchop1
Feb 9, 2017 7:23 PM CST
Baja, what I know about the plant comes from the Santa Rosa Gardens website. Here's a link to what they say about it: http://www.santarosagardens.co...
It doesn't resolve your issue but at least you know where my pic came from. Smiling
Leslie

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
Name: Lin
Florida Zone 9b, 10a

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plantladylin
Feb 10, 2017 8:51 AM CST
I agree. As I'm googling and reading it appears to be a hybrid cross of A. humilis and should be shown as: Aloe x humilis 'Andhogp' or at least Aloe 'Andhogp'.

"Spineless Hedgehog" appears to be a common name (although I have no idea who thought of that one since the plant has teeth.) Green Grin!


These pages show the common name of Spineless Hedgehog and the cultivar name 'Andhogp':
https://www.plantant.com/find-... humilis hedgehog &plant=1335732
http://www.ag3inc.com/PlantDet...
http://plantsnouveau.com/plant...
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Name: Rob Duval
Mason, New Hampshire (Zone 5b)
Region: New Hampshire Vegetable Grower Daylilies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1 Tomato Heads
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robertduval14
Feb 11, 2017 11:37 AM CST

Plants Admin

This won't answer the question at hand, but I wanted to add my 2 cents in regards to the use of the trade name of 'Spineless hedgehog'...


Spineless Hedgehog, as it's shown in the database, is a trade name, not a cultivar name. Trade names can be any darned thing that the seller wants to call it and often has little bearing on the actual plant. In my opinion, Trade names are more sales gimmick then anything else...
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/...


In this case the trade mark is owned by Plants Nouveau.

Name: Rob Duval
Mason, New Hampshire (Zone 5b)
Region: New Hampshire Vegetable Grower Daylilies Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 1 Tomato Heads
Annuals Hostas Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Spiders! Dog Lover Region: Northeast US
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robertduval14
Feb 11, 2017 12:05 PM CST

Plants Admin

ah, crap. I see my link above no longer works (timed sessions)...here is what my trademark search of 'spineless hedgehog' turned up...

Word Mark SPINELESS HEDGEHOG
Goods and Services IC 031. US 001 046. G & S: Live plants. FIRST USE: 20120301. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20121201
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 85496932
Filing Date December 15, 2011
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition May 22, 2012
Registration Number 4377227
Registration Date July 30, 2013
Owner (REGISTRANT) Plants Nouveau LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY SOUTH CAROLINA 33 Wentworth St Charelston SOUTH CAROLINA 29401
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
Cactus and Succulents Seed Starter Foliage Fan Xeriscape Container Gardener Hummingbirder
Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Region: Mexico Plant Identifier Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator
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Baja_Costero
Feb 11, 2017 12:17 PM CST
Thank you all for your input.

Then the listing on the Plants Nouveau site represents the owner's understanding of the plant's name, presumably (not using legal terms, just the situation as I understand it).

Which would be wrong from the start by the usage I have come to understand, because "Aloe x humilis" makes no sense (using a species name after the cross) and is almost certainly a mistake which should be corrected to "Aloe humilis x". The place where the x would make sense before the name would be in the case of a hybrid like "Aloe x spinosissima" where the Latin name is not a species name but the name of a hybrid (whose parents' names are listed above and do not contain the word "spinosissima"). In the case of humilis, the Latin name is a species, so "Aloe x humilis" is a contradiction in terms. Calling a species a hybrid, essentially.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
Cactus and Succulents Seed Starter Foliage Fan Xeriscape Container Gardener Hummingbirder
Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Region: Mexico Plant Identifier Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator
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Baja_Costero
Apr 3, 2017 12:39 PM CST
It appears someone has made a change to the entry and improved it, though not in the way I had imagined. Thank you for doing that.

One thing I would like to politely ask in the future is that if you see a thread like this and make a change, please communicate with whoever brought it up so they know what's going on. A three word reply is more than sufficient. It's a matter of investing in human infrastructure as much as data infrastructure, as I see it.

However things may appear among admins, it's a black box out here as a user when the invisible hand shows up and makes changes without a word. I understand the admins are busy and volunteer (as am I) but would like to encourage you to imagine things from a different perspective and indulge me with the briefest of replies. Otherwise you are providing a pretty strong disincentive for users like me to participate.
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
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dave
Apr 3, 2017 12:54 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

It was edited February 12th by @KentPfeiffer.
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
Cactus and Succulents Seed Starter Foliage Fan Xeriscape Container Gardener Hummingbirder
Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Region: Mexico Plant Identifier Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator
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Baja_Costero
Apr 3, 2017 12:54 PM CST
Thank you for that information. I tip my hat to you.

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