Daylilies forum: 'Dormant' now 'Dedicuous'

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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Feb 16, 2017 6:52 PM CST

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Davi said:
Char, I agree that consistency is really important and it seems that coordination is always lacking on official AHS sites. A lot has been done recently to update the technology aspect of the database as it relates to registration and during this process, it is getting frustrating for users. I liked one of Salters new intros and wanted to see if it had been registered, but the database has not up uploaded since October 2016 and its VERY slow in uploading. It will, no doubt, be done.....but when?


I think in the last update Nikki gave about the database she said they were switching to a whole new program for the database but didn't say when that would be done. Three months without an update in registrations seems like a long time ...doesn't make it very easy to check those new introductions and make sure they are registered. If I remember right there used to be an update shortly after the end of the registration year and then there would be another roughly around the time the checklist came out and they had proofed for any needed corrections (my guess for a reason on the timing). I really don't use the AHS Database much anymore other than to check out something I can't find in the NGA database.

This post by Maurice is a good one to read and fits in with what we have been talking about.
https://garden.org/thread/view...

I didn't go back and read all the thread but will give that link as well. The second post from the top by Sue was interesting because I was trying to figure out what you mean when you said "hard dormant" James.
The thread "Do you own any surviving southern dormants?" in Daylilies forum
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 17, 2017 4:39 PM CST
This has been an interesting thread, and I'm not sure I want to get in the middle of it or not!

For just a moment, lets compare daylilies with apples. Most apples are deciduous and go dormant in winter. Some apples
require a long number of chill hours in order to produce flowers, while only a few have low chill hours required to produce
flowers in warmer areas. As I don't live in the tropics, I really don't know if there are any apple trees there that will bloom
and produce fruit, but I do know that certain apple trees that grow well in the south will do poorly in the north, and those with
long chill requirements will not produce flowers and fruit in the south.

I have bought a great number of evergreen daylilies from the south, and the vast majority of them don't grow well here, and
they rarely ever rebloom like they do in the south. I have a friend in the south who tried to grow Heavenly Angel Ice, which
is a reliable grower in the north because it is a hard dormant. In the south, it will not go dormant long enough for the chill hours
it requires to flower properly. In the south it behaves as an evergreen, but as it is a hard dormant/ deciduous, it needs that
dormant period to reproduce a new bud.

There are many people who believe that the evergreen plants are not as hardy in the north. While I have had some that just
lingered around waiting for death, I have never had one to freeze out. The majority of my seedlings are at least Semi- Evergreen,
and they do very well here, but the dormant/ deciduous plants are generally more robust and healthy looking. Evergreens will
often bloom two weeks earlier than the dormants, and generally have almost half the number of buds for me as the number
in their registration. For those who consider bud counts as an important attribute, that number is not always reliable unless
you choose a plant that was designed for your climate. In defense of the evergreens, they keep my garden looking green and lush
until the snow cover convinces them that it is time to give up.

When I am choosing a plant just for my collection, it really doesn't matter if it is dormant or evergreen as long as I like it.
As a hybridizer, it matters a great deal! I have several in my garden that were registered as dormant/ deciduous, but are
completely evergreen here. If I am buying them as breeding stock, I am limited as to what I can cross them with, so I would
like to rely on that description to be accurate. Southern growers will also not want hard dormant plants if they don't have the
necessary number of dormant chill hours to make them flower. Dormant and hardy are not the same thing.

I am sure the powers that be will have a struggle with this one, and it will be interesting to watch it unfold. My only comment
is that "dormant" is much easier to spell, and I will probably continue using it even if it isn't politically correct.
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Feb 27, 2017 5:15 PM CST
@Deryll

If the information was kept or could be determined somehow, I suspect the chilling hours that a plant requires to perform its' best would be a more accurate method of determining which ones are best for your growing conditions. Chilling requirements may loosely correspond between deciduous (dormant), sem-evergreen and evergreen, but with probably a lot of variation between plants.

There may also be a corresponding reverse element in daylilies where some can tolerate high summer heat better than others. For me, the intolerance of the high summer temperatures without a cool down at night is a bigger factor than the winter low temperatures for many plants (not daylilies). So far in my location the three types all seem to be doing pretty well for most of them, but if any are sensitive to the season temperature ranges, then their performance may lag some years.
Donald
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 5:53 PM CST
Hi Donald,

I agree with you, but it would be really hard to track that information for every plant coming out.

I have posed some of this thread to one of the people who contributes to articles in the Daylily Journal, and she also is
friends with Jamie Gossard, so perhaps those people will publish more information in coming issues. It would be very
interesting to see what their findings are, and how better to make the determination of the plants composition in
different geographic locations.
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 3, 2017 9:01 AM CST
I'm bumping this productive discussion back to the top as it fairly presents both sides of an important issue. Recently, a petition has been started that respectfully asks that a change from "dormant" to "deciduous" NOT be made on the AHS registration form. If anyone would like their voice heard, this is a place to collectively do that:
https://www.gopetition.com/pet...
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Mar 4, 2017 5:57 AM CST
The petition, however, does not present both sides, there is only the option to sign against the change, and the reasons given in the petition's introduction are "alternative facts" Hilarious! Contrary to the preamble, it is not inaccurate to use the term deciduous for plants other than trees and shrubs. Simply Googling using the keywords (include the quotes) "deciduous perennial" will find plenty of results for non trees and shrubs.

The US Patent Office requires a botanical description for patented plants, and the term deciduous is used there to describe perennials with foliage that dies back. Some examples from a USPTO document:

"Astilbe plants are characterized as perennial, deciduous..."
"Crocosmia includes some 7 species of deciduous, perennial monocots.."
"Bleeding Heart. Dicentra plants include 19 species of annual or perennial deciduous herbs ..."
"In late winter, deciduous Epimedium spp. must be clipped clean of the previous season's growth..."
"Calla Lily. Zantedeschia plants include 6 species of rhizomatous perennial herbs which grow to 2.5m; rhizomes subterranean, fleshy, oblique, much branched; leaves to 45 cm+, borne from apex of rhizome, deciduous or evergreen.."

From: https://www.uspto.gov/web/pate...

This of course doesn't mean that the word dormant in the context of daylilies is always incorrect or that people have to stop using it, just that it is not a foliage term that describes non-evergreen. If someone can find a reference to "dormant" being used to describe another perennial's foliage as opposed to a state of non-growth I would be interested to see it. Right now all my daylilies are dormant (not growing) whatever their registered foliage habit.

So why not instead advocate for adding an extra category to registration - for dormant and non-dormant? This is reflected in some of the plant patents for daylilies, for example this is from the patent for the daylily 'Going Bananas':

" Plant description: Plant shape and habit.--Hardy, deciduous, winter dormant, herbaceous rhizomatous perennial".

The AHS's change is not inaccurate as is suggested by the petition, the current terminology is. Other entities sometimes feel it necessary to translate/correct our "daylily-speak". Walters Gardens for instance, in their glossary of botanical terms "DORMANT (DAYLILY) Dormant means deciduous." Whether one votes to keep the word "dormant" just because it is familiar (and because, as suggested in the petition, deciduous is too difficult a word) is another issue.
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 4, 2017 7:46 AM CST
I agree, the petition doesn't present both sides, and it wasn't meant to. It seems that the Scientific Studies Committee has been the ONLY side that HAS been listened to thus far. The President of the AHS posted this on Face Book

"There has been passionate discussion regarding the recent changes to the terms Dormant and Deciduous in the Daylily Dictionary.
We would like to gather additional scientific information before making any permanent changes to the daylily Registration form.
Therefore, in the meantime, for those who register daylilies, the daylily Registration form will remain as it has been historically with the terms Dormant, Semi-evergreen, and Evergreen as the selections for foliage type.
If you have any scientific publications that you think should be considered, please forward them to [email protected]. Please note that commentary on social media and email forums will not be taken into consideration. If you have new ideas, suggestions, scientific information, or want your opinion to be heard, individually or as a group, please forward your consensus statement, in writing, directly to [email protected]. The Scientific Studies Committee will place the most value on scholarly sources.
Thank you for your patience in this matter."

The petition states simply: "Retain the term "dormant". Do not change this to deciduous" Rhetoric on other pages of this web site is the opinion of web site owner and she has a right to her opinion as well.

This is the consensus statement (in writing) that the AHS president requested. I'm not advocating that anyone sign it or not sign it. Please don't shoot the messenger.

https://www.gopetition.com/pet...


Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 4, 2017 7:46 AM CST
I went to the petition from the link provided by Davi...is that it? That's the petition, one of the main arguments being that we would have to pronounce and use an English word on a daily basis. Now I was certainly not a great student in school, spelling is a weak point of mine, but I do believe that most of us are smart enough to learn to pronounce, spell and use correctly one word in English for gosh sakes! I also am not a scientist, but it seems that (from what I can read) science oriented motives are behind the change. I think if the change had not been submitted I could happily live with the term dormant, but if it is more scientifically correct to use the term deciduous (only took two tries to spell it correctly) I am all for that and I don't see any reason dormant could not be used along with it until we get used to the change. In my garden dormants disappear completely a lot of the time, so maybe true hard dormants could be described as vanishing daylilies. Not being a member of the AHS, I don't have a vote, just wanted to say it doesn't look like any big deal from just a daylily growers point of view.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Mar 4, 2017 7:51 AM (+)]
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Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 4, 2017 7:59 AM CST
Looks like we pushed the send button at the same time, Larry.....again, the link to the petition itself.....
https://www.gopetition.com/pet...

The petition states simply: "Retain the term "dormant". Do not change this to deciduous" Rhetoric on other pages of this web site is the opinion of web site owner. You can read my full response in the post above yours.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 4, 2017 8:08 AM CST
Well, just from what little I just read, the simple statement of "don't change" will receive no consideration by the committee. It seemed to me they are saying vent if you want, but only if you have a scientific argument will we consider your opinion. That is just my take on it.
Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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crawgarden
Mar 4, 2017 8:42 AM CST
What term would be used for the buying public? Which term is more explanatory for someone purchasing the plant?
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 4, 2017 10:18 AM CST
I would say NEITHER......when I go to a store to buy a plant, I only look for the tag that reads: (hardy to zone 7, -10 degrees) to see how it applies to me
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 4, 2017 10:30 AM CST
"It seems that the Scientific Studies Committee has been the ONLY side that HAS been listened to thus far."

Last year there was a discussion on the AHS Robin and some members wanted the Scientific Studies Committee to look into correcting the terminology. Why were no objections raised then?

Larry, the petition is not limited to AHS members, anybody can sign.
Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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crawgarden
Mar 4, 2017 10:40 AM CST
I would also look at the zone, do they use the terms dormant on the tags? I would think the majority of the public actually purchasing the plants are familiar with the terms evergreen and deciduous, dormant would be confusing to them. Looking at the catalogs they talk about foliage type as dormant/semi-evergreen/evergreen, the zone in this particular cat comes up if you select additional info. Just think the term dormant is more for a niche group, vs the much larger group of individuals that purchase the plants. Change is tough. Smiling
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
[Last edited by crawgarden - Mar 4, 2017 4:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Mar 4, 2017 11:56 AM CST
If one goes to the American Hemerocallis Society website and reads the about the society page,
http://www.daylilies.org/AHSin...
the first few lines indicate,
"The American Hemerocallis Society, Inc. (AHS) is a non-profit organization founded in 1946. The AHS is organized exclusively for educational and scientific purposes, and especially to promote, encourage, and foster the development and improvement of the genus Hemerocallis and public interest therein. "

I am going to emphasize "exclusively for educational and scientific purposes"

The registration of daylilies confuses two different aspects of daylilies - leaf longevity and plant growth (or lack of growth).

A plant can have at least some green leaves all year - evergreen - leaf lifespan or longevity.
Or a plant can have no green leaves for part of the year - deciduous - leaf lifespan or longevity.

There are other terms for other categories of leaf lifespans, for example, summer-green (or summergreen), winter-green or (wintergreen).

The term dormant relates to the lack of plant growth not leaf longevity or lifespan. Dormant, for example when used for winter dormancy, usually is related to the lack of growth of a bud. A plant species can lose all its leaves for winter (be deciduous) and also have dormant buds. A plant species can keep some or all of its leaves for winter (be evergreen) and also have dormant buds.

The expert scientist researchers who work on leaf longevity describe the deciduous-evergreen alternatives as,

"The evergreen habit basically is defined by the retention of functional leaves in the plant canopy throughout the year, as opposed to the deciduous habit in which a plant is leafless for some part of the annual cycle."

"A plant is commonly referred to as evergreen if it retains at least some leaves throughout the year, in contrast to deciduous plants, which are bare of leaves for some part of the annual cycle of the seasons."

They do not exclude herbaceous perennials (like daylilies) from being deciduous. They do not exclude monocotyledons (like daylilies) from being deciduous. They do not require special abscission layers to be deciduous, etc.

The information required for registering daylilies by the AHS should be corrected so that it is scientifically correct and does not incorrectly educate anyone. It should be corrected so that the AHS lives by its own mandate to be organized exclusively for educational and scientific purposes.

There is no obvious reason why registration information could not be changed to,
Foliage habit (or type) - deciduous, semi-evergreen, evergreen
and a growth habit added,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no]
or even,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no], summer dormant [yes/no].

Making the dormant to deciduous change in the registration database for all previously registered daylily cultivars is trivial and should have little or no cost (and be automated). One simply displays the text deciduous instead of the text dormant.

Creating a new category for winter dormant is also relatively simple and can be automated for all previously registered daylily cultivars and should have little or no cost.

Maurice
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
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Polymerous
Mar 4, 2017 2:11 PM CST
I would actually appreciate a category for summer dormancy. I have two daylilies here that go summer dormant, and for years I hadn't a clue what was going on - I thought they were dying!

It wasn't until someone, somewhere, finally mentioned "summer dormant" in passing, that I finally knew what was happening.

As for the rest... I don't mind big words, and if "deciduous" is the scientifically correct and accurate term, then I am in favor of it. I will just have to suck it up, wrap my head around it, and get used to thinking of daylilies as "deciduous" instead of "dormant". I made the change from "polytepaled" to "polymerous", so I can make this new change, too!
Evaluating a reblooming diploid daylily seedling
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 4, 2017 2:18 PM CST
admmad said:

There is no obvious reason why registration information could not be changed to,
Foliage habit (or type) - deciduous, semi-evergreen, evergreen
and a growth habit added,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no]
or even,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no], summer dormant [yes/no].

Making the dormant to deciduous change in the registration database for all previously registered daylily cultivars is trivial and should have little or no cost (and be automated). One simply displays the text deciduous instead of the text dormant.

Creating a new category for winter dormant is also relatively simple and can be automated for all previously registered daylily cultivars and should have little or no cost.


I think this is a reasonable compromise as well, but (correct me if I'm wrong) what is being proposed is that only the foliage type be changed to a choice of deciduous, semievergreen, or evergreen and the word "dormant" would not be included anywhere on the registration form. "Dormant" is a term that historically goes all the way back to Stout and most people have come to understand what it means as it relates to plant habit. So without the new section that you are proposing, it creates a lot of confusion.

I can agree with everything that you said.....with the exception of the AHS existing EXCLUSIVELY as a scientific and educational community. That pretty much gives a lot of worker bees and party bees a reason to NOT join the AHS!!!
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 4, 2017 2:53 PM CST
In your earlier post in this thread, Judy, you mentioned that the AHS President had asked for ideas and suggestions on this topic to be sent to the Scientific Studies Committee Chair for consideration. That's the place to write to request an extra category for dormant. Another suggestion has been to include the zone of the location where the plant was hybridized. This approach would be more constructive than just trying to block the attempt at fixing the current incorrect terminology. I don't see any supporting scientific evidence, which she asked for, against the change of word in the petition, am I missing something? I would also have thought the petition should be limited to AHS members.
[Last edited by sooby - Mar 4, 2017 2:55 PM (+)]
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Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Polymerous
Mar 4, 2017 3:22 PM CST
One further (side) comment on summer dormancy. I hadn't a clue, and I am sure that the average non-AHS gardener would not have a clue, either. Such information should be available, so that people will know to expect that summer dormant daylilies are going to look, er, "different" during the summer (when their other daylilies may still be in bloom).

Judy, you make a good point about the role of the AHS. Whether it was explicitly written in the charter or not, its actual function goes beyond the scientific and educational realms.

Perhaps the best compromise is to both correct the terminology to "deciduous", but also allow the use of "dormant" - but I can see the possibility of confusion. Technically it is still winter here in my zone 9 garden. The deciduous daylilies have all broken dormancy (there is no confusion there about "deciduous" and "dormant"), but I honestly haven't a clue as to whether or not the evergreen or semi-evergreen daylilies went dormant during the winter. (I'm busy with other things and don't pay attention to them.)

So that begs the question - IS there any garden, anywhere, where daylilies of whatever foliage habit do NOT go winter dormant? Confused
Evaluating a reblooming diploid daylily seedling
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Davi
Mar 4, 2017 4:15 PM CST
Yes, Sue....I do believe you are missing something. The statement from the AHS indicated that only SCHOLARLY opinions would be weighed....meaning YOU can make suggestions to the SSC chair, MAURICE can make suggestions to the chair (and I urge you to do that, Maurice!), CHAR can make suggestions to the chair.....anyone from the "scientific community" may make suggestions, but MY opinion or others' suggestions made on this forum will not be considered. All other opinions including those of hybridizers who use the registration form regularly will not be weighed unless by CONSENSUS STATEMENT by A GROUP. Is the petition perfect.....absolutely not. And AGAIN, I'm saying....please don't shoot the messenger. Sign it or don't sign it....I'm not campaigning either way. But for now, it seems to be the only way that people outside the "exclusive scientific community" can be heard as it has been made clear that discussions like this will be ignored as well as individual comments. Fair?? I don't think so.

Ms Poly, Ms Poly, Ms. Poly (merous/tepelous/whatever.... I got the title right this time!!!).....we must talk. There is only one place for summer dormants IMHO....compost heap!!! The problem with daylilies that go summer dormant is some of them only do that when the heat and drought get to be too much for them....and then other years they don't go summer dormant. THAT is a whole 'nuther conversation!!!!

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