Daylilies forum: 'Dormant' now 'Dedicuous'

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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 4, 2017 4:39 PM CST
"If you have new ideas, suggestions, scientific information, or want your opinion to be heard, individually or as a group..." does not seem to preclude someone from making suggestions for extra categories or require that only scientific information will be considered. She said the SSC will place the most value on scholarly sources - anybody can research scientific information, I don't interpret that as meaning coming only from scholarly people. I think what she was referring to there was the first part, if you want any corroborating articles with an alternate opinion to be considered they should be from scholarly sources, such as scientific literature rather than, for example, from somebody's blog or a newspaper article.

I think excluding social media and email lists is the only thing they can do practically. There are so many different daylily groups in so many different places, who is going to monitor them all for comments and suggestions? I don't interpret what she said as excluding suggestions from anyone not in the scientific community.

When I said I was missing something, I meant on the petition. How does that conform to the requirements? It is not presenting any scientific evidence to rebut the proposal.

Not shooting the messenger, I just think an opportunity that has been offered to have some input for improvements to how the AHS does things is being missed.
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
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Polymerous
Mar 4, 2017 4:59 PM CST
Judy, while it usually does not get as hot here as it does in other parts of the country, we do get hot spells, and I undoubtedly have drought to contend with. I do like those two daylilies (otherwise, they still wouldn't be here), and one of them has some poly genes lurking therein, so I am loathe to get rid of it.

But I do think that I see your point. I'm not exactly thrilled with their behavior, but now I at least know that the plants aren't dying; they just need cleaning up.

(Based on a difference in performance from my last home/garden to the current one, that "poly genes" daylily seems to be somewhat environmentally sensitive, but I suspect that is true of most if not all polymerous daylilies, anyway. Many years ago (pre-2000) when I was part of a snail mail poly robin, the poly cultivars in my garden consistently had the lowest % of poly blooms, of many gardens in many different parts of the country. The joke was that if a poly daylily was not going to poly anywhere, it would be at my garden. Hilarious! )
Evaluating a reblooming diploid daylily seedling
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Mar 4, 2017 5:35 PM CST
My understanding of the basic problem and situation.

In the recent past the situation for the "dormant" category by definition was,
"Dormant (dor.)
These daylilies lose their foliage completely before or shortly after frost and over winter with pointed foliage buds, usually just beneath the soil surface. Dormants will resume growth in spring. "

This confused the deciduous foliage type " lose their foliage completely before or shortly after frost" with the dormant growth type " over winter with pointed foliage buds, usually just beneath the soil surface."
The definition of dormant was confused.
The problem was then compounded by including dormant (a growth characteristic) as an alternative to the evergreen and semi-evergreen foliage types in a foliage characteristic for the registration information.

The suggested replacement is for a deciduous definition,
"DECIDUOUS:
The term deciduous refers to daylilies that lose their foliage completely before or shortly after frost and over-winter with pointed foliage buds, usually just beneath the soil surface. Deciduous plants will resume growth in spring. Also see Dormant."

OR

"Deciduous. The leaves of these daylilies die completely back as winter approaches. They stop growing and form resting buds at the crown, and the foliage dies down naturally and gradually. In the spring, the resting buds have a distinctive spear-like appearance as they emerge."

The replacement definition for deciduous confuses the deciduous foliage type " leaves of these daylilies die completely back as winter approaches" with the dormant growth type "stop growing and form resting buds at the crown".

It is only barely better than the previous situation but only because it now has only different foliage types in the registration information "deciduous or semi-evergreen or evergreen".

The problems are not resolved.

They will only be properly resolved when the definitions for foliage types are separate and for growth types are separate. The artificial mixed definition/category of deciduous&dormant needs to be separated into two independent classifications - foliage types and growth types. That seems to me to be the best (only?) way to permanently resolve the problems.


Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Mar 4, 2017 5:42 PM (+)]
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Name: James
South Bend, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Enjoys or suffers cold winters Birds Seed Starter Annuals Region: Indiana
Region: United States of America Dog Lover Daylilies Container Gardener Plant and/or Seed Trader
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JWWC
Mar 4, 2017 6:33 PM CST
Davi said:Yes, Sue....I do believe you are missing something. The statement from the AHS indicated that only SCHOLARLY opinions would be weighed....meaning YOU can make suggestions to the SSC chair, MAURICE can make suggestions to the chair (and I urge you to do that, Maurice!), CHAR can make suggestions to the chair.....anyone from the "scientific community" may make suggestions, but MY opinion or others' suggestions made on this forum will not be considered. All other opinions including those of hybridizers who use the registration form regularly will not be weighed unless by CONSENSUS STATEMENT by A GROUP. Is the petition perfect.....absolutely not. And AGAIN, I'm saying....please don't shoot the messenger. Sign it or don't sign it....I'm not campaigning either way. But for now, it seems to be the only way that people outside the "exclusive scientific community" can be heard as it has been made clear that discussions like this will be ignored as well as individual comments. Fair?? I don't think so.


The request says that if you want your opinion heard individually or as a group to forward a statement, though they will give credence to scientific sources (which I would presume means peer-reviewed research). You, individually, can also send them an e-mail. Thumbs up

I actually made a suggestion similar to Maurice regarding adding information regarding hardiness or dormancy to the registration and was told that the Registration Committee would have to consider that.
Name: James
South Bend, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Enjoys or suffers cold winters Birds Seed Starter Annuals Region: Indiana
Region: United States of America Dog Lover Daylilies Container Gardener Plant and/or Seed Trader
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JWWC
Mar 7, 2017 3:54 PM CST
So, interestingly, I was doing a little digging today. And it seems that Stout used both terms. It is hard to tell but you can look at the pictures below. 1 from The Journal of the New York Botanical Garden, and 1 from when he sold the plants through the Farr Nursery.


Thumb of 2017-03-07/JWWC/4399de
Thumb of 2017-03-07/JWWC/6d6a20
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 7, 2017 4:10 PM CST
Before about 1954/5 daylilies were registered as deciduous rather than dormant so that would probably account for the catalog. In his writings Stout also used continuous and discontinuous for growth. Interestingly, the New York Botanical Garden currently lists the daylilies they have as deciduous rather than dormant.
Name: James
South Bend, IN (Zone 5b)
Hostas Enjoys or suffers cold winters Birds Seed Starter Annuals Region: Indiana
Region: United States of America Dog Lover Daylilies Container Gardener Plant and/or Seed Trader
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JWWC
Mar 7, 2017 5:21 PM CST
The NYBG journal was from the late 30's. I'm not saying it is conclusive, I just think it is interesting that he would use both terms. In his book for example, he refers to the types as deciduous and evergreen, though he does at times reference foliage going dormant then becoming brown etc.

Other sources from of the same period seem to exclusively use deciduous.
Name: Diana
Lincoln, NE (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Region: Nebraska Organic Gardener Dog Lover Bookworm
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ShakespearesGarden
Mar 7, 2017 6:31 PM CST
Nice history James!
Thumbs up
Scout's motto: Be Prepared...
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 8, 2017 5:21 AM CST
Stout also used continuous and discontinuous. Of course foliage type and dormancy are two different things, which is behind the idea of changing the terminology. So you can refer to the same daylily as both deciduous and dormant. If the term dormant is being used appropriately, as in not growing, you can also refer to the other types of daylily as evergreen and dormant or semi-evergreen and dormant when they are not actively growing.
Name: bron
NSW-Qld border Australia
Tay Daum in my subtropical garden!!
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bron
Mar 12, 2017 9:36 AM CST
sooby said: On the north versus south thing, it's interesting to note that Stout, when he first described semi-evergreens, referred to the cultivar 'Chengtu' being deciduous/dormant in Florida but evergreen/semi-evergreen in New York. So it isn't just a north=dormant and south=evergreen thing because the reverse can occur. Daylily dormancy is not well understood.


I was going to finish reading this thread in the morning b4 commenting, but this Sue's post with the observation by Stout seems to highlight the reality of the complexity/variablility of daylily 'behaviour'.

Here in subtropical Australia nearing the end of a near blast furnace and dry summer, I was pleased today to find a leaf on my beautiful MAKING A SPLASH. I feared it had died, but it must have dropped leaves to save transpiration. I recall it disappearing once before at a different time of year. Recently my YOU ANGEL YOU did a similar thing, and is thankfully now shooting up new leaves. Out nights are at last down to 65 deg minimums but maximums are still around 88 degree

For a few weeks now I have also had MOROCCAN SUMMER and KENT'S FAVORITE TWO disappear, but I am hoping they will do the phoenix trick.

This seems a quite different phenomenom from what I observed with MARCIA FAY, which has for at least 2 years lost every leaf in June (our mild winter). After about 2 weeks a fresh set grows and it flowers well in about October. We have not had a frost here for 2 years. I will try and note this year if it seems water related.

Perhaps the important aspect of cold hardiness is best dealt with by reference to minimum temperatures altho that might be hard given snow cover and mulching make a difference.
[Last edited by bron - Mar 13, 2017 1:43 AM (+)]
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Name: bron
NSW-Qld border Australia
Tay Daum in my subtropical garden!!
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bron
Mar 12, 2017 11:06 AM CST
I have now read this whole enthralling thread even though I have to have some sleep tonight.

I think the conclusions of Maurice @admmad are excellent.

admmad said:
The information required for registering daylilies by the AHS should be corrected so that it is scientifically correct and does not incorrectly educate anyone. It should be corrected so that the AHS lives by its own mandate to be organized exclusively for educational and scientific purposes.

There is no obvious reason why registration information could not be changed to,
Foliage habit (or type) - deciduous, semi-evergreen, evergreen
and a growth habit added,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no]
or even,
Growth habit (or type) - winter dormant [yes/no], summer dormant [yes/no].

Making the dormant to deciduous change in the registration database for all previously registered daylily cultivars is trivial and should have little or no cost (and be automated). One simply displays the text deciduous instead of the text dormant.

Creating a new category for winter dormant is also relatively simple and can be automated for all previously registered daylily cultivars and should have little or no cost.


A new term 'winter dormant' would make clear it is a reference to dormancy and not to the old understanding of 'dormant' as a substitute word for deciduous.

I would also applaud the use of 'summer dormant'. Given the comments by Judy Davisson and Polymerous, perhaps it should be explained in glossaries as meaning the plant 'may go foliage dormant if stressed from heat or dryness'. That might be a very adaptive habit as it is sure better than losing every drop of water from the plant by transpiration through leaves until there is nothing left of iit. It may also signal how to care for such a plant. While reading this thread I have wondered, if when our days were long and hot, I had watered my MAKING A SPLASH a lot more, maybe I would have induced rot. ???

Maybe leaf drop is protective like bud drop. I do not regret removing buds from some plants in the hottest weeks. They will have nice blooms in cooler times. But I am also glad I had some that bloomed on regardless.

If summer temperatures continue to rise it might be a good to do research on some plants observed to lose leaves in summer. One could test whether they always lose leaves even when kept moist, or whether keeping them moist at certain temperatures induces rotting. There are a couple of cultivars that I must try and grow in the shade, which here is very bright light, even in cooler months.

I don't agree with the proposition that a deciduous tropical daylily would do much for the rust problem. Unless one could obtain and grow only such daylilies, and also ones that don't develop summer spores, the other cultivars would soon spread it back to the deciduous ones once new leaves grew.
[Last edited by bron - Mar 16, 2017 6:44 AM (+)]
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Ontario, Canada (Zone 5b)
Dog Lover Region: Canadian Daylilies
Anne
May 7, 2017 10:44 PM CST
So did this get anywhere? Or is the change on hold still? I have some labels to do and would rather do them once, if possible. Smiling
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
May 8, 2017 5:52 AM CST
I think it was done "officially" before most of the discussion about it actually started. I am not sure how well it will be implemented on labels in gardens throughout the country. Maybe just put a "D" in that spot on the labels, then you could be correct either way? Confused Change is often hard to accept.
I guess that is one reason not to add too much info on the labels, it is always changing. Much easier to make computer changes than label changes. So I just put the name on the label...sometimes that even changes.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
May 8, 2017 5:53 AM CST
I believe the way forward is to be discussed at the National Convention but you could do what some people already do which is just put D if you want to indicate foliage type on your labels.

Cross-posted with Larry but same idea! I don't bother with foliage type here because it is pretty much meaningless in my climate and for registered plants only indicates how the cultivar behaved in the registrant's garden, not necessarily mine.
[Last edited by sooby - May 8, 2017 5:56 AM (+)]
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