Daylilies forum: unknown x unknown, sdlg x sdlg, and even (sdlg x sdlg) x (sdlg x sdlg)

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Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 22, 2017 7:11 AM CST
Mike, I was just kidding with that list. I like all the colors. All the forms. Even some of the toothy ones, though they can be kinda scary looking!

Fred, do you mean that you sell unregistered seedlings, and even then, you make sure to tell who the parents are? Also, in your opinion, does the average gardener that's wanting to beautify the yard spend the kind of money being asked for some of those daylilies? I could buy a nice little tree or a couple of hydrangeas for that price!


I are sooooo smart!
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Feb 22, 2017 3:09 PM CST
I do sell unregistered seedlings and always with the parentage. I do not sell to walk in traffic, everything is done on the lily auction. The average person will not pay any amount of money for a daylily, that's the reason I sell on the auction where people know the value of a seedling or a registered daylily.

I don't know how many know this, a daylily is a seedling until its registered with the AHS no matter how old it may be.
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 22, 2017 6:10 PM CST
Fred, another thing that really blows my mind - I would be listed as the hybridizer if I registered seedlings that grew from the seeds purchased from you on the LA! It seems kinda sad, and yet wonderful for me. I don't quite know what to think of it.
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Feb 22, 2017 9:27 PM CST
There is a difference in unknown x unknown from seedling x seedling but you may not know the parents in either case.

I can tell you lots of unknown x unknown registered daylilies that does not hurt the value.
Kidfishing
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Feb 23, 2017 5:51 AM CST
That is true Josieskid, an unbloomed seedling is the same, I have never sold unbloomed seedlings but several people do on the auction. I have bought both bloomed and unbloomed and have also bought seed on the auction. I have never registered anything from those purchases, but would if something great turned up because I have the Parentage.

I agree that not knowing the parentage of a registered daylily may not hurt the value, I just don't like the idea of not keeping records of seedlings.
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 23, 2017 6:58 AM CST
Kidfishing, I agree that they have value, and they certainly can be tempting!

Fred, it looks like we all have to agree to disagree. Lots of different opinions. I trust you both, but look how some of those awards are figured out. Daylilies that don't only perform well in the hybridizers yard, but all over the country. Surely, that doesn't happen by accident.
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Feb 23, 2017 3:42 PM CST
I agree everyone deserves the right to there opinion.

About the awards, as most know the AHS awards are voted on by us AHS Garden Judges and the only way to change the results is for more people to too join the AHS and become garden judges.
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 24, 2017 7:01 AM CST
No, Fred, I think you misunderstood me. I meant that making the daylilies that win awards such as the Stout Medal can't possibly be easy. Surely, knowing the ancestry would help. I had no idea that bad traits (rust buckets) from past generations could come back to haunt you!
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Kim Krodel
CT (Zone 6a)
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Krodero
Feb 24, 2017 7:55 PM CST
spunky1 said:
I don't know how many know this, a daylily is a seedling until its registered with the AHS no matter how old it may be.


True. One of mine has the oldie Hall's Pink in the parentage. I tried to register it as Hall's Pink (unreg) but was told I had to submit it as seedling instead.

Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Polymerous
Feb 24, 2017 8:39 PM CST
Wow, really? Even if the daylily in question has a garden name and has been introduced and is in commerce? Blinking

I have Benz' "Cheddar Ruffles", which he started selling back in 2012, but apparently never registered. Glare

It seems wrong that you are forced to submit as a "seedling" a plant that has been introduced and sold under a certain garden name. I think that there should be a mechanism to list the garden or introduction name, followed by (unreg.) to indicate that that plant was not registered. "Garden Name" (unreg.) is potentially useful information (if the plant is well known), whereas "seedling" is jut plain useless. Glare
Evaluating an iris seedling, hopefully for rebloom
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Feb 25, 2017 6:53 AM CST
We do have to deal with the past when hybridizing daylilies as with anything else.

There has been many daylilies given a garden name and sold without ever being registered, you have to check the AHS Database if you want to avoid them. The AHS has to maintain some control over the registration process. The general public doesn't really care, they are just looking for something pretty to grow in there yard.
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 25, 2017 7:07 AM CST
Polymerous (a name that feels good rolling off the tongue!), it's because only the person who first blooms the daylily can register it. They know where this flower came from, and it's vital statistics. So, if you could find that person and get them to register it, you'd be good to go.

It's starting to sink in. The person that toils and troubles and breeds the plants gets first choice. They're the one that first sees the pretty face, tall scapes, clean foliage, and so forth. The person produces seeds and seedlings that for one reason or another they don't wish to bother with so they sell/give them away. The recipients then have the honor. And, if it's a fabulous daylily with both parents attached, what they have is the whole package.
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Hostas Lilies Hybridizer Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Irises
Hummingbirder Region: United States of America Daylilies Region: Oklahoma Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kidfishing
Feb 25, 2017 9:25 AM CST
I am not new to daylilies but naming and registering is a new venture.
Some registration parentage looks like this:
Parentage: (((Mont Blanc × Erin Farmer) × (Orchid Corsage × Just for Laughs)) × Heavenly Curls)

I registered my first intro "Windswept Morning Angel" like this:
Parentage: (Indian Giver × sdlg)
I did not think to do it like this, but could have and possibly should have:
Parentage: (Indian Giver x (Baby Blue Eyes x Substantial Evidence)

I think many dayliles registered with seedling as a parent could be detailed since the grower knows the seedling parents.
Kidfishing
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 25, 2017 11:30 AM CST
I am unlike most of you because I grow out my seedlings just for ME. No crosses are written down, and when the seeds are
collected, they all go in one big pan to dry. When I plant them, they all go together in big tubs until they are large enough to
be transplanted to the garden. When they bloom, I choose the ones I like out of the field and discard the rest. I haven't ever
sold plants, but have given quite a few away because they were that good. I have only registered one so far, yet a good many
are worthy because they perform better here than most I buy. Registration isn't important to me because most of the time
they never leave here and few other people ever see them.

I agree that knowing the parentage can be very useful, but in the end, the flower is the important thing for me. I grow a lot of
evergreens here, mostly for pollen. Some do amazingly well, while others don't, but I haven't ever had one to freeze out. My
point is that I would be shorting myself if I avoided them simply because they are "evergreen". Many of my best crosses are
with an evergreen parent, and most often the seedlings are also evergreen, yet they grow well for me here.

If I were ever to sell plants, I would do so by sight alone, and would only say that the plants are hardy here in Ohio - FOR ME.
Many times I have given plants to people who came back later and said that they had died, yet I have clumps laying everywhere
that I am trying to kill. Quite often it is the gardener, not the plant! And that is precisely why I don't sell plants! My point is that
all of my seedlings are UNK x UNK yet I can often tell you one of the parents with a fair amount of certainty. As a gardener, I
am the one who has to decide if I like it or not, and if petigree was all I cared about, I would choose another hobby. I am in
this for the enjoyment because I love it, but if it were organized pain, I would move on. I have a lot of respect for people who
keep all of those meticulous records, but I ain't one of 'em! SORRY!
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Feb 26, 2017 6:32 AM CST
Thanks for posting that Kidfishing, as long as I have been doing this I am always learning something every year.
Deryll said
My point is that
all of my seedlings are UNK x UNK yet I can often tell you one of the parents with a fair amount of certainty. As a gardener, I
am the one who has to decide if I like it or not, and if petigree was all I cared about, I would choose another hobby. I am in
this for the enjoyment because I love it, but if it were organized pain, I would move on. I have a lot of respect for people who
keep all of those meticulous records, but I ain't one of 'em! SORRY!

I would be doing the same thing if I wasn't selling. I also enjoy what I am doing and when it becomes a pain I will stop.

Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 26, 2017 9:31 AM CST
Deryll, now you've made me question what would be done with all the seeds and daylily seedlings I'm going to produce. (!!!) (I hope!)

Perhaps if I grow the plants in pots, I could just have neighborhood sales, like garage sales. No, wait! I'll just put up a sign and dig them on the spot. No worrying about shipping and all that.

And, I'm honestly going to try practicing composting, if I can bear to part with all my ugly children. I really think the world could do with less look-alikes, and I need some compost material anyway.

But, knowing my compulsive personality, I'll be keeping records.



I are sooooo smart!
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Feb 26, 2017 2:17 PM CST
josieskid said:
But, knowing my compulsive personality, I'll be keeping records.


You sound just like me! If I get a nice looking seedling, it would drive me crazy to not definitively know its parents! Rolling on the floor laughing

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 26, 2017 4:25 PM CST
When I go through the Unk x Unk seedlings, the only thing I care about is which expensive one it can replace, because
I have a very high standard for my garden, and if it can't measure up, they GO! When you have several thousand plants, you
can only need so many of each kind or color, so I pick the ones "I" like best regardless of pedigree or cost. The only ones
where pedigree matters to me very much is with Tet conversions, and I will try to keep some first generation releases to
use instead of buying the conversion itself- because it is cheaper that way.

And Josie, those seedlings have a way of adding up very quickly. If you really love your garden, and do anything else besides
spend every waking moment working in the garden, you will learn to make some shortcuts, and all of the records in the world
won't make it a better cross. It is what it is, and it only matters if someone likes it. When you run out of space or the energy to
care for any more, you can become very selective. Think of all of those thousands of plants the growers compost every year,
and how much time was wasted keeping records of the crosses they tossed out. Not me! I have more important things to do!
Thumb of 2017-02-26/Deryll/94d7a0
UNK x UNK


Thumb of 2017-02-26/Deryll/020005
extremely fragrant UNK x UNK
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Feb 26, 2017 4:47 PM CST
I am not much of a record keeper either, but I think there are two ways of looking at one particular situation. Yes, maybe thousands of seedlings were tossed, but were those wasted hours of record keeping, or will those records prevent many more hours from being wasted. It appears to me that only by keeping records could a person avoid making the same mistakes over and over. I don't hybridize enough to even mention it, but one day I might now that I am getting up to my goal of two hundred named varieties. I think I would have to keep some type of records, how would I know if I had a successful parent if I did not record it, especially with my memory. I think I would be more inclined to hybridize more for plant traits and bloom traits than just pretty faces, but pretty faces would always be a plus (it is sort of the trump card) of any hybridizing program I guess.
Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
"The mountains are calling..."
Region: California Garden Photography Garden Procrastinator Daylilies Pollen collector Dog Lover
Moon Gardener Irises Heucheras Vegetable Grower Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Polymerous
Feb 26, 2017 8:10 PM CST
Seedfork said:I am not much of a record keeper either, but I think there are two ways of looking at one particular situation. Yes, maybe thousands of seedlings were tossed, but were those wasted hours of record keeping, or will those records prevent many more hours from being wasted. It appears to me that only by keeping records could a person avoid making the same mistakes over and over.


What Larry said.

For example, if I throw out a seedling because I don't like the foliage (it stands upright, it is prone to leaf streak, it is prone to rust), it is helpful to review the parentage. I now not only know not to cross those two particular parents together again, but I can extrapolate from that and not cross two parents with similar traits again, because I will end up with a similarly bad result.

I'm sure the same is true for other traits (budcount, branching, flower opening, what-have-you).

On the flip side, if you get a particularly good seedling (such as the fragrant seedling whose image you posted), you haven't a clue who the parents were, and therefore you can't explore the cross (there might be even better offspring that could come from that cross).

The time spent making records is only wasted if you don't learn from the information that you recorded, not only to avoid certain (kinds of) crosses, but also that certain parents can give you excellent results, or at least propagate a certain desirable trait.

Evaluating an iris seedling, hopefully for rebloom

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