Daylilies forum: unknown x unknown, sdlg x sdlg, and even (sdlg x sdlg) x (sdlg x sdlg)

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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Feb 27, 2017 5:41 AM CST
Record keeping isn't the chore you make it sound like.
#1 You record the cross when you collect the seeds and give it a # (01)
#2 You mark the seeds with the #(01) when you plant the seeds (I use mini blinds cut 6" long) and a black Painters Pen from Wal-Mart
#3 If you do not select a seedling from that cross when they bloom the record keeping for (01) is over
#4 If you select a seedling from that cross flag it, and make a new marker (01-01) if you select another from that same cross it will be (01-02) and so on.
I use HB in front of mine because they are going to the hybridizing bed. The following bloom season I record the stats only on the seedlings in the HB area.
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Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 27, 2017 6:22 AM CST
Valerie, true that!
I are sooooo smart!
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 11:10 AM CST
When I make a cross, I will normally do three flowers at one time. Sometimes all three will take, sometimes none! The thing
is that plants come and go so often that only the best ones remain after a couple of years, and it hasn't ever been a problem
about duplicating a cross either intentionally or accidentally. Only a certain number of the seed crop will actually be planted,
and when I go to the seedling field to choose the ones I like, they are finished plants and will go into my collection. The main
goal here is to add to my collection. Where you may not like plants that stand up, I do.. the larger the plant the better! Here
in Ohio we don't often have many problems with rust, so it would be hard to selectively breed it out, and there again, I will
simply choose the plants that "I" like best be it for the plant or the flower itself.

I live alone and have several acres to take care of by myself, plus canning and freezing and shopping and cleaning and laundry
and cooking.... There is not the time in a day to get it all done, so I choose to cut corners and enjoy life as much as I can. This
is what is right for me, and I am not saying that you are wrong, but that just makes us individuals. I simply don't have the time
to waste needlessly. Where you might think it important for you, I don't feel that way. I like the surprise of the UNKNOWN,
and in my seedling field, I couldn't be happier. Just don't judge me harshly for doing it differently than you do it. As for my
seedlings, they are there to be enjoyed, and pedigree is not important, and it also doesn't bother me at all to have them listed
as "seedling" where many people criticize NOID's. As I said, you like it or you don't. Me, I am trading up, and adding to my
collection with bunches of unknown x unknown seedlings, and have no regrets doing it this way.
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Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
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Mayo62
Feb 27, 2017 1:49 PM CST
I still feel like I'm a newbie and I don't know anything about how to make crosses to get a desired 'result'..
I'm even still discovering my likes and dislikes in the big sea of daylilies out there Hilarious!

Knowing the parentage of a certain daylily isn't really important for me.
I want to know what color the flower will be, what form it is and when it will bloom, so I can enjoy my garden for as long a period as possible.
I don't mind buying 2 exacly similar plant if one is early and the other is .. well, nót early Big Grin
I have even bought a couple of plants because the name made me laugh.. Rolling on the floor laughing

I think that móst of the people that buy daylilies are like me: we just enjoy our gardens and our plants.
And yes: I'm sure that some day I will 'dabble' a bit and will try to pollinate a flower before the bees do it! But if it produces a goodlooking flower it will be fate and not me studying for hours to figure out the genetics Hilarious!
When I buy seeds on the LA I look at the pictures: if I really like one of the parents and the other isn't too ugly I'm game! Thumbs up
And whether the parents are unknown x unknown, or ((Almira Buffalo Bone Jackson x Faulkner sdlg) x (Picasso's Paint Brush sib x Faulkner sdlg)) x (Almira Buffalo Bone Jackson sib x (Faulkner sdlg x Almira Buffalo Bone Jackson sib)): who cares?
(To tell the truth: when trying to check this 'name' I gave up after the second link.. I have no idea what they brought to the resulting seedling anyway!)


Mayo
a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 2:06 PM CST
Mayo, Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! !!!
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Feb 27, 2017 2:59 PM CST
Different breeders do different things and no way is right. Human history has so many discoveries from people going their own path. Let others discover in ways you wouldn't without judgement, everyone stands to learn new things.
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Feb 27, 2017 3:28 PM CST
I know a complicated or even a simple parentage my not mean a lot to people, but I like to see it presented for those it does have meaning for. I think it would be great if the hybridizer would go a step further and say this x this because I am trying to accomplish this specific trait. Personally, I might try a cross between 'Primal Scream' and 'Gypsy Rose Lee' just to see if I could get 'Primal Scream' to multiply faster.
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Feb 27, 2017 4:41 PM CST
Deryll I said earlier in this same Forum if I didn't register and sell daylilies I would do just what you do.
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 4:48 PM CST
Hi Larry,

I got Red Bull because the stats said it had 80 buds and scapes like tree trunks, and maybe it does in Florida, but it is
lucky to have 30 on a good day here. Stats are not always as dependable as the results you have in your garden. My
crosses are based on the plants performance here in my garden. I once had Heavenly Angel Ice and composted it when
I had a seedling that was much better for me. There were a bunch of seedlings out of that cross that were very nice, but
only the one was white. Logic doesn't always provide results, which is why I just muddle through and select the ones
that make me happy. Experience is my teacher, and I hope your cross gives you what you are looking for. Angel Ice
and Primal Scream both won the Stout, but we find them lacking in our gardens, yet I have unknown seedlings that
outshine every Stout winner with the possible exception of Websters Pink Wonder. I want more bang for my buck,
and don't rely on hype anymore.
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Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 4:56 PM CST
Hi Fred,

So, what -IF- I decide to sell plants? Is is not a good idea because I don't keep records? Does that mean that my keepers
are not as good? I just don't know how to please everyone, and just consider keeping them all to myself.
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Irene Bally with a 10 inch flower.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Feb 27, 2017 5:44 PM CST
@Deryll,
If you become too disillusioned with 'Red Bull' let me know, those stats look pretty impressive to me, I am a little closer to Florida.
One thing I think to consider is that people who do sell daylilies and win awards have their plants judged by many different people in many different locations. Certainly your plants may do better in your garden than any of the award winners, but how would they do across a large portion of the country? I think that is something plant sellers should consider (I think most of them do). It is great for you to personally select plants that please you and that excel in your particular garden. I don't know that such a strategy would be good for a seller who sells plants over large regions of the country. I look at the regional plant lists and am impressed by some of the plants that seem to do well in so many different parts of the country. Certainly no plant can be expected to do well everywhere, but I think it is good that some growers do seem to be successful in developing plants with a wide rage of geographical success.
You are happy doing what you do, that is great, I don't think anyone would question your decisions to grow what you want how you want, it is your garden. If you decide to sell plants, I don't think it would be wrong for you not to record parentage, l. I don't think it would be wrong for you to sell plants that are selected for their performance only in your garden. All that is fine, but I just think it would limit the appeal of the sale of the plants to a large group of buyers (but that is more a marketing type thing) nothing to do with the actual performance of your plants.
Yes, unfortunately, I am dependent on the stats when I make my selections.
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 27, 2017 6:37 PM CST
Larry, I will get back with you about Red Bull. I look at the plants just on the LA, and a large percentage are born and bred in Florida.
There in the south, a lot of those people spray for rust, and according to Jamie Gossard's website that stuff acts as a steroid with
daylilies and those fantastic budcounts are not reliable unless you spray, water, and fertilize... and I don't. The other contenders
on the LA are less than desirable in many cases, and not good enough unless I am looking for something very specific.

If I ever decide to sell plants at all, I think I would do it on a sight seen basis with no guarantees! Since I am not a jetsetter,
there is no way that I can be certain where my plants will grow, but I can give you a very long list of plants that have been in my
garden with impressive stats that failed to cut it. And some were very expensive! I am only saying that performance needs to be
judged in the growers garden, and since we all have different likes, the results may vary a great deal in different gardeners. Me,
I prefer the very large flowers, where some people prefer miniatures. I also go for fantastic sepals, some wide and blunt, and
others that are ruffled. All I need is a photo to tell you if it will be acceptable, and I will take my chances with all of the other
details that may or may not be correct... here. The unknows are like playing the lotto. Sometimes you just have to pick one
simply because you like the looks of it, and then hope you are a winner. I just go for an impressive display, regardless of if it
has a fantastic written recorded pedigree. The challenge is on for all of us greenies to produce fantastic plants, and who knows,
the day might come when one of our undocumented seedlings will win the Stout. Thumbs up
Name: Mayo
The Netherlands, Europe (Zone 9a)
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Mayo62
Feb 28, 2017 2:35 AM CST
Polymerous said:
For example, if I throw out a seedling because I don't like the foliage (it stands upright, it is prone to leaf streak, it is prone to rust), it is helpful to review the parentage. I now not only know not to cross those two particular parents together again, but I can extrapolate from that and not cross two parents with similar traits again, because I will end up with a similarly bad result.

I'm sure the same is true for other traits (budcount, branching, flower opening, what-have-you).

On the flip side, if you get a particularly good seedling (such as the fragrant seedling whose image you posted), you haven't a clue who the parents were, and therefore you can't explore the cross (there might be even better offspring that could come from that cross).


hi @Polymerous,

Like I said: I'm an ignorant when it comes to crossing... Whistling Hilarious!
but aren't your 2 statements in contradiction with each other?

If I understand correctly (english is not my langage and sometimes I misunderstand the finer details..)
You say that when you have a 'bad' seedling you won't make the same cross again because you'll get the same bad results or worse and that when you have a 'good' seedling you will want to try again with the same parents because 'the next' (or the 100th? Whistling ) seedling might be better.

Isn't the last true for the 'bad' seedling as well?
Isn't it possible that the same cross that produced a bad seedling could also give a perfect seedling, but the 'bad seed' was just sown sooner than the perfect one?
I understand that crossing traits in daylilies isn't the simple 'math' that I was taught in school regarding eyecolor in humans, for example and that it is far more complicated..

I'm still totally in the dark about how anyone can predict beforehand what will happen when you cross 2 daylilies, without having tried it out a lót of times and seeing which traits are 'dominant' and will be/may be passed along...
For me it sounds quite overwhelming and I applaude everybody being able to make a living from selling his/her own 'creations' ! Hurray!
Either you dó know what your doing ór you're véry lucky and have sown a lot of the 'good seeds'..! Hilarious!

Mayo

a DL flower a day keeps the doctor away
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
Ponds Hummingbirder Daylilies Container Gardener Butterflies Birds
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spunky1
Feb 28, 2017 5:15 AM CST
I think I will just step back before things get nasty.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Feb 28, 2017 6:33 AM CST
I do think it was a good question. I can see how it could be confusing to people to try and understand how you can isolate good traits from bad when doing crosses. Yes, for sure a lot of it is luck, but I do believe that people with years of experience do tend to develop a sense for dominant traits and discover that some plants are much better at passing those traits along than the average plant. I think if you look at a hybridizers history you will be able to see progress in the direction they set their goals (Lage flowers with sculpting for example). Admittedly, there will be lots of failures along the way and it may take years of trying and nothing is absolutely predictable, but
that appears to be the case in most endeavors. I myself feel that one reason certain plants are often so sought after (expensive) by hybridizers is because of their ability to pass along certain traits. I think just by the selection process things like rust can be reduced by not using plants that have a high likely hood of passing rust along.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Feb 28, 2017 9:06 AM (+)]
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Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Feb 28, 2017 9:02 AM CST
This is good. Everyone's ideas and experience has worth. We all come here to learn (some of us to brag!)


This morning, I've been reading threads on this site about growing in pots. Stuff that goes back for years. Stuff that is so helpful. That I would never have known! Some of you on this very thread left posts on those old ones. To me, this is comparable to gathering and recording stats on cultivars.
I are sooooo smart!
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 28, 2017 11:15 AM CST
All I know is that I am one of those buying the expensive plants to use with my crosses, and get a lot of good results.

In my experience, most of us are breeding for something "better" than what we had to begin with, and it is a journey that is
really fun. For me here, the end result is what I look at. I can tell you that I have given plants to a few breeders to use with
their crosses in Virginia, Florida, and California, and every one were Unknown x Unknown, because I only sent them a
seedling based on the flower. I have had no complaints.

I also don't want people to think that I am getting testy. I just think that we are all different and do things in different ways.
For me, keeping all of those records is just a waste of my time.
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Name: Marilyn, aka "Poly"
South San Francisco Bay Area (Zone 9b)
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Polymerous
Feb 28, 2017 12:48 PM CST
@Mayo62 - I have no problem with you questioning me, and I congratulate you on your fluency in a non-native language; that is highly admirable. Thumbs up (I have studied both Spanish and Russian, some decades ago. I have lost almost all but a few words in Russian. I retain enough Spanish to sometimes be able to express myself simply to my garden helpers, or to read simple signs, but I have no fluency or listening comprehension in the language whatsoever.)

Getting back to making (or not making) crosses... I probably expressed myself badly. An additional point to keep in mind is that some people have more time and space and energy for growing out lots of seedlings, whereas others of us don't. Those time/space/energy limitations factor into whether or not I will repeat a particular cross (and I suspect that the same holds true for other people).

Also, whether or not to repeat a cross will depend on how many seedlings you got the first time around, how many of those seedlings exhibited the trait(s) that you want, and how rare those genes are. The rarity of the genes will factor into this.

Let me try to explain this...

I have an interest in tet polymerous daylilies (and there are relatively few tet polys out there). I also have an interest in rust resistant daylilies. I also sometimes make a cross on a whim, because I want to see what two particular parents will give me. (Doing these last two types of crosses when I am energy/space limited sounds counterproductive, and against the generally sound advice of many experienced hybridizers, but I have found that I personally need the positive feedback that these two types of crosses give me, in order to continue on with the harder poly crosses.)

Somehow my seedling space has to accommodate those three categories of crosses.

If a particular poly cross produces at least 10 seedlings, and none of them are polys, then I probably won't do that cross again. (Yes, I know that 10 is a small number of seedlings... but if even 1 seedling is also poly, even at a low % of blooms, then that is a hint that it might be worth re-doing the cross. If none of them are poly, then most likely I will be wasting my time/energy/space repeating that particular cross.)

A particular example from last season... I had 11 seedlings of a particular hoped-for poly cross (one parent maybe 60% poly, the other maybe 5% poly). Some of the seedlings were weak, most strong, one died. All of the 5 seedlings that bloomed are muddy in color to some extent, and have light midribs (which I loathe). Two of those 5 produced poly blooms that hint at a decent percentage (but you can't tell for certain when you only have a few blooms on the new seedling; I have been fooled before, and even with older seedlings you may not get a repeat performance). From the results thus far (recall that 5 seedlings have yet to bloom), this cross might be worth repeating in terms of % of poly offspring (I'll know better this season), but I can predict that a high % (and maybe all) of the seedlings would also be muddy. If it weren't for the mud (and the light midribs) then I might well repeat the cross. However, it might be a better use of my time/energy/space to take those two seedlings (if they turn out to be decent % polymerous) and work with them to boost the polymerous % and get rid of the undesirable traits (mud and light midribs).

Another example (from a cross that had maiden bloom last season), was aimed at near-white tets. I crossed a rusty near-white tet with one that had some degree of resistance. I had a lot of seedlings (that was a chaotic year so I somehow did not record how many I started with), but I do recall that several of them got tossed out even before they made it into the planting bed, because of rust. (The 4" pots with several small seedlings each were sitting around in the garden a while before I finally got my first seedling bed built. I specifically recall that one of the pots was almost all but taken over by an extremely vigorous seedling, which alas, had upright-like-a-sword foliage and was covered with rust.) Of the 8 that actually made it into the seedling bed, 2 were subsequently removed for rust, 1 died (or was dug out by critters), 3 bloomed, 2 have yet to bloom. Of the 3 that bloomed, only one had acceptable blooms. The foliage on all of the seedlings tends to be somewhat upright. Because of the bad results (rust and upright foliage), I will not repeat this cross again. However, I may work with the one seedling (thus far) that has an acceptable bloom, crossing it against something with decent foliage. I may also re-use the somewhat resistant parent (both parents had somewhat upright foliage), but against a different rusty parent (there are certainly enough rusty near-white tets out there Rolling my eyes. ) that has arching foliage, and see what transpires. (While not worth repeating, this cross is an example of a learning experience... upright x upright = upright foliage; rusty x somewhat resistant = a lot of rust but maybe a few not . There are lessons to be learned even in the failures, and THAT is why you keep records.)

As for the other on-a-whim crosses, I have had some interesting results, but thus far not anything worth repeating (pretty enough flowers, but scapes shorter than I like, or maybe the blooms blotched or smaller than I like, or some other fault).

So to summarize (my dog Warp is whining at me - time to go out into the garden!), if there is time/energy/space enough, then you can repeat all sorts of crosses, both the bad and the good. Repeating good crosses may give you more good or even better results. But if you have constraints, then it is better to learn the lessons from the bad (or only partly successful) crosses, and go from there.
Evaluating an iris seedling, hopefully for rebloom
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Feb 28, 2017 5:16 PM CST
Poly-

Just wanted to say that the plants you tossed out of your cross would have been just fine here! I toss out those little short
plants FIRST, and keep the ones that make monster clumps. And with all of the plants I have, and the way they come and go,
repeating a cross is not likely.

Also wanted to say that I was looking at Dan Trimmers catalog for this year, and of the 20 new releases, 9 of them had at
least one Unknown parent... Almost HALF. I think I am in good company.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Feb 28, 2017 5:49 PM CST
Polymerous said:
I have an interest in tet polymerous daylilies (and there are relatively few tet polys out there). I also have an interest in rust resistant daylilies.


Wouldn't you combine the two though? Space saving long term.

I mean, cross resistant with poly, go to F2 or F3 with it selecting only those displaying both traits.

Sure you'll probably take a hit to the poly % for the first gen or so but if you select properly the genes that result in resistance and poly are going to be combined into the same (strain) of plants.
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)

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