Lilies forum: Breeding outcomes from 'TallBoy'

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Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Apr 9, 2017 7:05 AM CST
In The thread "L. henryi color forms & breeding" in Lilies forum , Protoavis asked about progeny from TallBoy and provided an explanation of the 50/50 colour split I observed in a batch of TallBoy seedlings. I'm far from being an expert but I thought I would start a thread to collect any observations/theories regarding TallBoy as a breeder.

dellac said:So, the seed I sowed was ((L. rosthornii x L. henryi) x L. henryi citrinum) x ((L. rosthornii x L. henryi) x L. henryi citrinum) and the orange:yellow ratio of the resulting plants that flowered was around 3:1 I don't know what colour the parents (or parent, if was selfed), were. The yellow seedling (yes, only four made it to adulthood and the orange ones are the weaklings) has a faint, sweet fragrance too.

I did use pollen from that yellow seedling on TallBoy, but now we're into the realm of orienpets. Just for interest anyway; 'TallBoy' (henryi x oriental 'Valley Sundust') is ordinary old henryi orange. The progeny of the cross have been split 50/50 orange/yellow. Four examples of each, total 8 seedlings flowered.


auratum said: I would have expected all of the latter cross to be orange colored and not a 50/50 mix...

Patrick



Protoavis said:



(cutting quotes down to the relevant parts) I maybe shouldn't respond since I've just woken up and have sleepy eyes but....from what I'm seeing I'd expect 50/50.

I'm assuming diploid.

Tallboy would carry a dominant orange and possibly a nothing relevant from the oriental. The genes likely don't line up perfectly in wide (and often species) crosses so the corresponding gene loci for the orange colour could be for something else entirely or just be junk DNA in orientals that doesn't do much/anything. (I may not have explained that well, paraphasing, the specific gene location for colour in one species often won't be in the same location in another species, can be if the colour gene is shared by common ancestors but if the colour came about after the species split chances are they'll be in different locations)

If yellow is recessive, then the pollen parent would have two yellows

the 4 outcomes of that gene pair (O = dom orange, y = recessive yellow, ? = possible not relevant gene for colour from oriental side)
Oy, ?y
Oy, ?y

50/50

Beyond the orange/yellow difference was there any other obvious differences. Like was Lilium auratum var. platyphyllum influence obvious in anything?


To respond, well, no. I couldn't detect any auratum influence in either colour progeny from that particular cross. But best to post pics. First, 'TallBoy' itself. The foliage is like henryi on steroids and flowers are best described as being henryi-coloured but speciosum-like in size and form. It is capable of producing quinary buds:

Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/e92c0d Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/1a00a0 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/763c2f

Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/a0e045 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/c0dd85 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/234dd9

Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/13d826 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/f0bc49 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/8cca50

Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/4e9410 Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/035f7e Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/f5c4b0

Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/d36ffb Thumb of 2017-04-09/dellac/dbb12f

Depending on the light the orange colouring seems rather dilute, as though it is a wash over a colourless base. It wants to set pods; they all rise keenly but don't fill out with good seed unless it really likes the pollen. Seems to set to both tetra and diploid Div VI pollen but especially loves diploid pollen parents that are close to henryi. Will set promising-looking pods to diploid Div. VII but I haven't gotten viable seed yet. Has produced viable seed from tetra OT pollen.

More another day....
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
Image
auratum
Apr 9, 2017 6:39 PM CST
Della - thanks for making this thread and sharing your experience with this plant! I think 'Tall Boy' has some amazing potential as a breeder. Joe raised several seedlings from it that he registered. I followed up with Liz Rouse as she had posted about a Tetra Black Beauty x Tall Boy seedling on another forum some years ago. She shared pictures of the seedling her father (Frank Chambers) had received from Joe Hoell and it looks very much like the mystery Hoell Regal Star. Hard to know for sure if they are the same but it affirms the likely background of that cultivar.

Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Apr 9, 2017 11:05 PM CST
Beat me to it, I was going to mention Joe's Regal Star. Smiling

Here it is, a mountain of a lily dwarfing all other OTs at the 2015 Claremont Show:

Thumb of 2017-04-10/dellac/675a4f

Thumb of 2017-04-10/dellac/6226b8

Yep, to best of my knowledge it is Tetra Black Beauty x Tall Boy. An incredibly vigourous plant. In this case it would hold with Dr. Griesbach's advice, to keep the O and T percentages close; O-T x O-T. T being henryi in both cases.

I wanted to expand on the 'O' part of TallBoy (it being L. henryi x 'Valley Sundust') and looked up the registry to get my facts straight. Here's the details of 'Valley Sundust':

L× parkmanii ‘Valley Sundust’ VII(b-c/b)
Parentage:
L. × parkmanii ‘Jillian Wallace’ X auratum var. platyphyllum
R: J. Hoell (1971), G: J. Hoell (1975), N: J. Hoell
(1988), REG: J. Hoell (1988)
Inside pinkish, tepal-tips white, throat vivid reddish
orange (32A); outside pale yellow-green (157A); spots
strong red (53B) in the throat; nectaries green; pollen
vivid reddish orange (34A). Fls 160 mm wide, slightly
scented; tepals 100 × 35 mm, margins smooth, tips
strongly recurved. Lvs scattered, 240 × 35 mm, mid
green. Stems 1.8 m, green streaked with bronze, with 18-
20 fls. Jan. (Australia)

'Jillian Wallace', in turn, was:

L. × parkmanii ‘Jillian Wallace’ VII(b/c)
Parentage:
speciosum ‘Gilrey’ X ‘Crimson Queen’
R: R.M. Wallace (c. 1938), N: R.M. Wallace
AM 1951
Fls Tyrian rose (HCC 24), paling to HCC 24/3, tepal-
margins white; spots deep crimson. Fls auratum
type. Stems 1.2 m, with up to 10 fls.
(Published in LYB9: 79, fig. 20 (1940). Named after
the raiser’s first grandchild.)

And Crimson Queen:

‘Crimson Queen’ VII(b/b)
Parentage: reputed to be
auratum var. platyphyllum × speciosum ‘Melpomene’,
but thought by some to be a form of auratum
R: unknown
Each tepal with a wide crimson ray. Fls
auratum type. Stems 1.2 m. Aug.
Syn.:
auratum ‘Crimson Queen’.
(Published in Wallace Cat.1902: 9.)


Whilst searching I happened across two more Tall Boy offspring Joe raised and registered! Shamefully for a Vandemonian, I've never heard of either, but I shall attempt to find out if they are still grown by anyone!

‘Valley Boy’ VII(-/-)
Parentage: L. × parkmanii ‘Valley Sundust’ X ‘Tall Boy’
R: J. Hoell (1982), G: J. Hoell (1986), N: J. Hoell
(1991), I: J. Hoell (1991), REG: J. Hoell (1991)
Inside white, with light orange-yellow (16B) rays, throat
light yellowish pink (36C); outside strong purplish pink
(55B); spots brown on two-thirds of each tepal; nectaries
green; pollen strong red (46A). Fls 160 mm wide; tepals
110 × 50 mm, margins smooth, tips strongly recurved.
Lvs scattered, 130 × 35 mm, mid green. Stems 1.65 m,
moderate olive-green (137A). Jan. (Australia).

'Valley Dawn’ VII(-/-)
Parentage:
L. × parkmanii ‘Valley Sundust’ X ‘Tall Boy’
R: J. Hoell (1982), G: J. Hoell (1986), N: J. Hoell
(1991), I: J. Hoell (1991), REG: J. Hoell (1991)
Inside white, each tepal with a brilliant yellow (12B)
ray, throat pale purplish pink (56C); outside moderate
purplish red (186A); spots moderate purplish red (186B)
on two-thirds of each tepal; nectaries brilliant yellow-
green (142B); pollen moderate reddish brown (166B).
Fls 192 mm wide; tepals 155 × 55 mm, margins smooth,
tips slightly recurved. Lvs scattered, 190 × 50 mm, dark
green. Stems 1.7 m, moderate yellow-green (138B), with
18-20 fls. Fertile. Feb. (Australia).

It's curious that Joe registered them as Div VII, though reportedly Tall Boy itself was first registered as Div VII also. Maybe this was pre-Div. VIII days. I think I remember those. Green Grin!

Anyway, they are both backcrosses, so for those of us attempting to use Tall Boy it's interesting that the pollen was successful onto oriental division. I've mostly tried the other direction. When I was given Tall Boy I was told that it was more fertile as the pollen parent but I haven't has any success in that direction yet. Pods sometimes form, but with iffy looking seed and no germination. Must be doing something wrong. Hilarious!

Here's another of Joe's Tall Boy babies, 'Golden Beauty':

Thumb of 2017-04-10/dellac/d4c810 Thumb of 2017-04-10/dellac/48f941

‘Golden Beauty’ VIII(c/b)
Parentage: ‘Tall Boy’ X ‘Tetra White Henry’
R: J. Hoell (1988), G: J. Hoell (1992), N: J. Hoell
(1994), I: J. Hoell (1995), REG: J. Hoell (1994)
Inside vivid orange-yellow (23A) throughout; outside
vivid orange (28B) on inner tepals, suffused with strong
reddish orange (32B) on outer tepals; spots absent;
papillae self-coloured; nectaries vivid yellowish green
(140A); pollen vivid reddish orange (30A); style and
stigma dark-coloured, stigma 3-lobed with a distinct
central depression. Fls 170 mm wide; tepals 105 × 48
mm, margins smooth, tips becoming strongly recurved;
pedicels heavily spotted vivid violet (89B). Lvs scattered,
245 × 42 mm, dark green. Stems 1.65 m, heavily spotted
vivid violet (89B), with up to 30 or more fls of very heavy
texture. Mid to late Dec. (Australia).

I haven't grown it but I'm often told it was one of Joe's best breeders; a parent of some of his best lilies. It is still grown, well-loved and used among the lily breeders down here.

Yes, oodles of potential in old Tall Boy. Can't wait for next summer now!!!

Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
Image
Joebass
Apr 10, 2017 4:19 AM CST
Great stuff Della! It would appear that auratum type hybrids would be good to work with if those accounts are correct.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
Image
auratum
Apr 10, 2017 9:28 AM CST
Della - thank you for pulling this together here! You did much of the same digging I did on the registry but you have great first hand experience with 'Tall Boy' & 'Hoell Regal Star'. I agree it has much potential as I believe Joe realized with many of his crosses using this plant.

I also believe the 'Hoell Regal Star' has as much if not more potential. It would be great if someone were to give it an official name to reduce confusion of this with the Bazett 'Regal Star'. I am convinced we need to figure out how to get offspring with 'Starburst Sensation' with both 'Tall Boy' & 'Hoell Regal Star'. SS has produced triploid offspring when crossed with diploid oriental ('Anastasia') and diploid trumpet ('Silk Road'/'Northern Carillon') which suggests it produced some unreduced gametes - if you were to pollinate a large number of flowers it is likely you will end up with some good seed. If we could combine the excellent attributes of these plants (SS, TB, & HRS) we may even be able to get some fertility... The recommendation from Bob Griesbach on keeping things balanced was to increase the probability of fertility in the seedlings - it was not in the context of vigor.
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Apr 10, 2017 4:36 PM CST
I used Tall Boy pollen on Starburst Sensation this year and pods set, but they look like they'll be all chaff. It wasn't a good year - certainly on my list to keep trying! I believe Jeffrey Boden in South Australia is working on getting seed between Joe's Regal Star and Tall Boy. Crossing Fingers!
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Feb 1, 2018 11:01 PM CST
Just read this & cheered.. look aT this next image when I get back : Drooling
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Feb 1, 2018 11:06 PM CST

Thumb of 2018-02-02/gwhizz/d0531d


Thumb of 2018-02-02/gwhizz/0cb975

With 3 evident seedlings..Im sure Ive sent out seed to others
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Feb 1, 2018 11:13 PM CST

Thumb of 2018-02-02/gwhizz/fed07e

Tallboy x Lavender Frost
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Feb 1, 2018 11:17 PM CST

Thumb of 2018-02-02/gwhizz/304741

Anton Mego seedling xBlack Heart White x Tallboy
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
Image
dellac
Feb 2, 2018 10:04 PM CST
woohoo! Hurray!

Still a bit of lily season left to try splashing some TB pollen around....
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Feb 10, 2018 4:56 AM CST
2outa 3 hits on him looked to have worked
lily freaks are not geeks!

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