Roses forum: Can roses outgrow their grafts?

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Name: Carly Rush
San Diego California (Zone 10a)
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carlysuko
May 8, 2017 4:22 PM CST
Hello everyone,

Most of my roses in my backyard are in beds that have a slope. Since this past winter we have actually received a normal amount of rain, dirt has gradually buried the graft. I noticed that a yellow grandiflora that I have started to sucker. Time got ahead of me and I forgot to cut it off until it already bloomed. Well to my surprise the bloom was the same yellow as the rest of the blooms on the bush. So now I have two questions. First, can grafted roses eventually grow on their own roots? Secondly, if so does that pose any problems? Ok actually three questions. Third, is it possible to divide it if indeed it is growing on its own roots?
Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
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ctcarol
May 8, 2017 6:40 PM CST
Wow! I can't wait for the answer to that!
Name: Karen
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plantmanager
May 8, 2017 6:45 PM CST
I once had a rose that ended up entirely growing on it's own roots. It choked out the grafted rose.
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Zencat
May 8, 2017 6:57 PM CST
I had Rio Samba graft die and it regrew from the roots. The only problem with it is the new one grows huge. I need to cut it back after it's done blooming this year.
Name: Joshua
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Australis
May 8, 2017 7:47 PM CST

Plants Admin

The rootstock is a different cultivar than the graft. The grafted stock usually has some behavioural or aethestic traits that are preferred over the rootstock, but the rootstock is typically hardier (hence the reason for grafting).

If a grafted rose has regrown from the rootstock, then it will be different to the original grafted stock.

The grafted stock should be able to root under the right conditions (similar to if you took a cutting from it). However, you may find that it is not as hardy on its own root system.
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Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
May 8, 2017 8:03 PM CST
Hmm. I'm looking at Dr. Huey blooming on my neighbors Double Delight and it sickens me. I've tried to explain it to them...even printed pictures from the web, but different language, different culture. Sighing!
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
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DaisyI
May 8, 2017 8:26 PM CST
While in CA, I grew a lot of roses but they are REALLY expensive. So I took cuttings and created my self-rooted roses. After a couple years, I couldn't figure out which was which.

So I don't see why the grafted part of a rose, if it was touching the soil, wouldn't root on its own.

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Name: Carol
Santa Ana, ca
Sunset zone 22, USDA zone 10 A.
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ctcarol
May 8, 2017 8:36 PM CST
I'm not sure about that, but I only have three of my own. One is a grafted plant for the florist trade that gets very tall with Looong stems. Many of my neighbors have taken cuttings when I'm pruning, and none of those grow as tall or have those long stems. I know that if I ever buy another rose, it will be self rooted.
Name: Daisy I
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DaisyI
May 8, 2017 8:44 PM CST
My 'rose garden' was planted at the top of a 4' x 150' wall (it was my idea of fencing to keep the kidlets from tumbling down the hill). I planted them about 3 feet apart. There were a LOT of roses in that hedge!

My biggest problem was that I like some roses better than others so only propagated my favorites. That hedge was beginning to get boring. Smiling
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Name: Suzanne/Sue
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Calif_Sue
May 8, 2017 9:45 PM CST

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Moved to the Rose forum for additional input. Thumbs up
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Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
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RoseBlush1
May 8, 2017 10:45 PM CST
Australis said:The rootstock is a different cultivar than the graft. The grafted stock usually has some behavioural or aethestic traits that are preferred over the rootstock, but the rootstock is typically hardier (hence the reason for grafting).

If a grafted rose has regrown from the rootstock, then it will be different to the original grafted stock.

The grafted stock should be able to root under the right conditions (similar to if you took a cutting from it). However, you may find that it is not as hardy on its own root system.


Joshua ...

You are correct in that a grafted rose is actually two roses. One rose is the root stock and the other rose is the cultivar grafted to the root stock.

If the cultivar goes own root, nothing has changed genetically in the cultivar and it cannot be a different rose.

There are advantages to grafting roses in that often the root stock can provide addittonal vigor to a rose that cannot survive on its own roots. The reverse is also true. As Zencat mentioned, grafting can help maintain the size of a rose or keep it from suckering. Grafting also allows gardeners to grow roses in a broader range of soils than a rose might grow happily in as an own root plant ... and more.

However, in the US, the reason roses were mostly sold as grafted roses after WWII is for production purposes. In the mid-20th century, roses were sold in the millions each year. Budders had a daily quota to bud 5,000 roses per day. The root stock had to accept almost any cultivar budded to it with few budding failures. The root stock of choice in the US since the 1930s was a rose called 'Dr. Huey' because it met all of those production requirements and it was easy to propagate to grow large fields of root stock.

Carly .. to answer your question ... yes, roses can go own root. No, you should not divide it ... Smiling It would be like taking an apple tree that was grafted to another root stock and trying to divide it. ... Smiling Daisy has the right idea about taking cuttings. Generally, if a grafted rose goes own root, it will probably grow well own root and did not need to be grafted for any reason other than for production purposes.

One thing about taking cuttings to create new roses. Some roses, to quote my rose mentor, "root like fire" while others do not take well. It depends on the rose.

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
[Last edited by RoseBlush1 - May 9, 2017 12:09 AM (+)]
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Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
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Australis
May 9, 2017 12:12 AM CST

Plants Admin

RoseBlush1 said:Joshua ...

You are correct in that a grafted rose is actually two roses. One rose is the root stock and the other rose is the cultivar grafted to the root stock.

If the cultivar goes own root, nothing has changed genetically in the cultivar and it cannot be a different rose.


I agree. I think my original statement might have been ambiguous - I meant that if a rose (which has been grafted) grows from the rootstock, then that part of the plant (being from the rootstock) will be different to the grafted part.
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Name: Carly Rush
San Diego California (Zone 10a)
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carlysuko
May 9, 2017 8:52 PM CST
Ok so now I am a little confused. I understand that Dr. Huey is for the most part going to be the rootstock, and if it were to take over, like when a rose starts to sucker then what would come up would be Dr. Huey, which is red. So if a rose does outgrow its rootstock, (Dr.Huey) then when it bloomed it would stay the same color as the original rose. Or am I all mixed up? Is it that even if the rootstock takes over, it could still resemble the rose you bought? Also I understand it would not be possible to divide a rose that was grafted because you would have to break up a single stem so to speak. However if a rose does go own root and has multiple stems...then could you possibly divide?

Thank you,
Carly
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
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RoseBlush1
May 9, 2017 9:51 PM CST
Carly ...

I'll answer in pieces ..

if a rose does outgrow its rootstock, (Dr.Huey) then when it bloomed it would stay the same color as the original rose.

Yes. It would be the same as the rose that was budded to Dr. Huey.

Is it that even if the rootstock takes over, it could still resemble the rose you bought?

If Dr. H takes over, that means the root stock is more vigorous than the budded rose and the budded rose will generally weaken and die. So, when you see a Dr. Huey sucker, you pull it off so that it will not take over.

However if a rose does go own root and has multiple stems...then could you possibly divide?

In theory, yes, you can do that. However, general practice is to take either a soft wood cutting or a hardwood cutting and using that as your propagation material.

Often roses that are grown own root are multiplied by taking a sucker from the plant and growing it on. You can also propagate a rose by air layering. There are some roses that will tip root.

You can grow your own root stock and bud your own rose.

It depends on the rose.

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
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gemini_sage
May 23, 2017 6:08 AM CST
I have a grafted Red Fairy rose (which is known to grow well on its own roots too) that I moved a few years ago, that upon digging I found had a strong root system above the graft. A large piece of it was growing off to the side with plenty of roots. I cut that part off and planted it in a separate spot and both are performing well and about the same size.

Last year I planted Solaro grafted onto multiflora root stock and last fall it was damaged by AT&T workers burying our Uverse cable. It was nearly broken away from the root system. It needed to be moved anyway because I'd planted it too close to an ITOH peony, so I pruned it back and gave it a new home with my fingers crossed. This spring it started growing and I also found some multiflora suckers. Upon removing the suckers I discovered it is also developing roots above the graft. I haven't found any more suckers, but if they do continue to show up I may dig it in fall and if there are enough roots above the graft I'm considering removing the multiflora rootstock completely.
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Name: Porkpal
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porkpal
May 23, 2017 10:30 AM CST
Interesting!
Porkpal
Name: Carly Rush
San Diego California (Zone 10a)
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carlysuko
May 25, 2017 12:18 PM CST
RoseBlush1 said:Carly ...

I'll answer in pieces ..

if a rose does outgrow its rootstock, (Dr.Huey) then when it bloomed it would stay the same color as the original rose.

Yes. It would be the same as the rose that was budded to Dr. Huey.

Is it that even if the rootstock takes over, it could still resemble the rose you bought?

If Dr. H takes over, that means the root stock is more vigorous than the budded rose and the budded rose will generally weaken and die. So, when you see a Dr. Huey sucker, you pull it off so that it will not take over.

However if a rose does go own root and has multiple stems...then could you possibly divide?

In theory, yes, you can do that. However, general practice is to take either a soft wood cutting or a hardwood cutting and using that as your propagation material.

Often roses that are grown own root are multiplied by taking a sucker from the plant and growing it on. You can also propagate a rose by air layering. There are some roses that will tip root.

You can grow your own root stock and bud your own rose.

It depends on the rose.



Hi Lynn,

Thank you for your breakdown. I fully understand now. Great explanation!

Regards,
Carly Acorn

Name: Carly Rush
San Diego California (Zone 10a)
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carlysuko
May 25, 2017 12:22 PM CST
gemini_sage said:I have a grafted Red Fairy rose (which is known to grow well on its own roots too) that I moved a few years ago, that upon digging I found had a strong root system above the graft. A large piece of it was growing off to the side with plenty of roots. I cut that part off and planted it in a separate spot and both are performing well and about the same size.

Last year I planted Solaro grafted onto multiflora root stock and last fall it was damaged by AT&T workers burying our Uverse cable. It was nearly broken away from the root system. It needed to be moved anyway because I'd planted it too close to an ITOH peony, so I pruned it back and gave it a new home with my fingers crossed. This spring it started growing and I also found some multiflora suckers. Upon removing the suckers I discovered it is also developing roots above the graft. I haven't found any more suckers, but if they do continue to show up I may dig it in fall and if there are enough roots above the graft I'm considering removing the multiflora rootstock completely.


Neal,

Awesome! Thank you for sharing that. I think next winter I will give it a shot. Probably too risky now that it already feels like summer here. Thanks again!

Carly Hurray!

Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
May 25, 2017 2:31 PM CST
Carly ...

I am pleased I was able to answer your questions ... Smiling

Thank you for the acorn ... I tip my hat to you.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

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