Lilies forum: Intermediate germination styles in OT breeding

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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
May 17, 2017 6:35 PM CST
In my experiences, many OT's that have heavy trumpet backgrounds will germinate in an epigeal manner. Very much like trumpets. Well this year one of my crosses has shown more intermediate germination.

I did a cross of Anastasia x Carte Blanche. So let's get into the parentage.

Anastasia is ((T x O) x O) =
75% oriental and 25% Trumpet

Carte Blanche is partially known. Based off what I have read it is a cross with Leslie woodriff so I know that half of it is at least ((O x T) x TT) so we know one half is 75% trumpet and 25% oriental.

That said we know that my cross is now at least 43.75% Oriental and 31.25% Trumpet/Henryi with 25% unaccounted for. I will attach some pictures of another comment.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
May 17, 2017 6:42 PM CST

Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/dd1f34
Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/c187be
Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/02567c
Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/c8fee7
Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/48086a
Thumb of 2017-05-18/Joebass/266cd8

If you notice the difference in length of the cotyledons, you will see some of the longer have more Trumpet like leaves and the ones with shorter cotyledons have more oriental shaped leaves. The small heart shaped one in particular. I pricked one with a short cotyledon out previously and it seemed to have a bulb similar to a hypogeal seed. Very interesting stuff.

Has anyone else had similar experiences?
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
May 18, 2017 7:27 AM CST
Joe - great questions! Not sure I have enough data to draw a conclusion with my seedlings. The shape of the leaves is not the only thing to look for here. Seedlings with lots of L. henryi influence will have very broad leaves but not quite "heart shaped" leaves for some of their first true leaves. I have noticed the rate of growth is very different. The higher the oriental percentage, the slower growing things are. The standard of growth for me is the Griesbach 4N OT seedlings & Silk Road or Pink Jazz x Griesbach 4N OT seedlings. Also seedlings of Griesbach 4N OT's x Griesbach 4N Aurelians. These are all very vigorous and are on their 4th or 5th leaf with very large leaves - guessing the bulbs are dime size for the largest ones - all started in January. If I can keep them growing I would hope for some blooms next summer.

For the OOT (Dutch 3N OT's like Conca d'Or & Palazzo) x Griesbach 4N OT crosses I am trying to grow - it is possible they are higher ploidy which would cause there slower growth. I had treated the buds to try to get the triploids to breed like hexaploids. If that is what happened then they seedlings could be pentaploid and this would account for the slower growth but I am guessing it is more likely the oriental influence on growth rate. In general I have very few seedlings from each cross of this type so I have to be careful drawing any conclusions based on so few seedlings.
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
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magnolialover
May 20, 2017 6:25 AM CST

Moderator

I have used Carte Blanche in my crosses for quite a few years. The germination, no matter what I have paired it with (OT or 4n trumpet) has been delayed. Though I will add, that a few times when I have used the freshest of seed, I may get one or two immediate (this has also happened with the freshest use of oriental seed). The Carte Blanche influence seems to be dominant, at least in the initial phase. Most of the first leaves, if not all, look very similar. Still awaiting my first flowers from these pairings. Slow growers, I lose some along the way.
Tracey
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jun 13, 2017 6:52 PM CST
The immediate germination with really fresh seed is possibly because they haven't dried out enough yet to result in whatever chemical process that causes the delay, same thing happens with roses (among others, I generally have far better germination of everything with immediate sowing...but no frost or snow to contend with, summer frying is the issue here) despite lack of stratification.
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)

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