Daylilies forum: Daylily Forms

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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Dec 7, 2011 6:51 AM CST
Being I have a different daylily form for myself(there are a few others that are registered with this form, but this is my first) this year I did some research on the AHS site to see what they had to say about it. I though it was called CRESTED but that has been droped and replaced with CRISTATE, not to be confussed with CRISPATE which has to do with unusual forms.
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This flower also has something else I haven't seen here before other than HEATHER GRACE. The petals do not lay on the sepals, they are well above.
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I have another flower where the petals do not lay on the sepals, both have LILLIAN'S ALABAMA SUNRISE as the pod parent, maby this is the link? I did make this cross again this year to see try see if this would do the same thing.
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I posted this one to show the difference between CRISTATE and CRISPATE.
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[Last edited by spunky1 - Jan 29, 2012 6:01 AM (+)]
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Name: Jan
Hustisford, WI
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Daylilies Dog Lover Irises Region: United States of America
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philljm
Dec 7, 2011 7:13 AM CST
I need more lessons in Daylily Forms- they confuse me. Thanks fo rposting this ~Jan
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 7, 2011 9:16 AM CST
These new forms/terms will be included in the updated AHS exhibition judges training presentation which is great so judges will know how to judge these new forms.
Fred, I hope you sent in your photos when they asked for photos of these forms on the Robin.

Jan, if you go to the AHS dictionary, all the terms are there along with photos as examples. http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/dictionary.html
If you click on the sculpted or sculpting you will see examples of all 3 together and if you click on each term individually they have other photos as examples.
The cristate photo of Jack Carpenter's "Texas Feathered Fancy" is what is considered by some to be bearded even though that term is not included in the AHS dictionary (Jack called it feathering). Michael Best has been trying to get that term included since 2005 or earlier to reflect his "Michael's Sword" He has a section on his website that talkes about this http://rainbowhilldaylilyfarm.com/beard/index.html

Curt Hanson has a lot of the sculpted forms (8 pages in the AHS data base) registered. Only one is criststed, the rest are pleated or relief.

Fred, I went and looked on the AHS advanced search for sculpted forms. There are quite a few earlier ones listed. I thought these were new terms that were added in 2010 or were they just revised ( crested changed to cristate) Are they going back and changing the forms on the older ones to reflect the true form it should have been listed as?


I have seen the extra tissue on some of the daylilies I grow and just passed it off as the bloom trying to double. I will have to keep a closer look out this year and see which ones do it. I think most were on rebloom though. Just like I have a seedling from Lyle that is a single, but every rebloom doubled. Mother nature having fun with us Big Grin
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Name: Dot or Dorothy Parker
Fort Worth TX (Zone 8a)
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Ladylovingdove
Dec 7, 2011 9:36 AM CST
Fred,

This is the one I want to be put on your wait list for when you introduce it, You HAVE to introduce it!!! Please put me in the number one spot for it unless of course, Tink is number one LOL. I think it is awesome!!! Orange also happens to be my favorite color. I will mortgage my house to buy it lol. I also like it even if it doesn't cristate.

I also want the one with the big dark cherry eye.

Thank you very much in advance.

Dot
Name: Lyle
Phoenix
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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lyle627
Dec 7, 2011 10:07 AM CST
I think all forms should have at least 80% of that form bloom on a single scape...

I'm not sure of extra petal on the mid rib but I do get pinched petals from time to time, and sometimes the extra petal curls up at the throat

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Sometimes teeth

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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 7, 2011 10:32 AM CST
Dot, you can be # 1 on the list, I'll take the #2 spot. Green Grin!

I agree with you Lyle on there needing to be a percentage of a form on a single scape. I had a double that only bloomed double maybe twice (it was an older one) and then one that never doubled at all. But I have seen newer ones do the same.

I just love that seedling Lyle.
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Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
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Betja
Dec 7, 2011 2:08 PM CST
Me too -- both of those seedlings are waaaayyyy fantastic!!!



Betty
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Dec 8, 2011 7:13 AM CST
As far as the AHS changing things, when they stopped using SPIDER VARIENT back in the mid to late 90s and developed the UNUSAL FORM category they had to get the hybridize-rs permission to change them to a LARGE FLOWER or UNUSAL FORM. I am assuming that this would be the case here, I am not sure of this, just makes sense to me.
I agree about the % thing, it must do what you say it does most of the time. I think Lyle has the same thing as I do, just not as much of it. I think all round daylilies will do this once in a while but very few will do it consently
More later, the Georges are here so I need to entertain for a while..
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 8, 2011 7:51 AM CST

Moderator

Sculpted forms, with the three sub-groups Pleated, Relief and Cristate were recognized as Daylily Forms in the fall of 2010. Information is being updated, including the registration of previously registered cultivars that are Sculpted forms. Hybridizers should contact the AHS Registrar, Kevin Walek, for information on registration corrections for these forms. The Sculpted cristate forms are NOT Doubles by themselves. To be a registered Sculpted cristate the cristation must be on the petals, not the stamens or extra petal segments of a Double form. Beard, which already has an established botanical definition, does not apply and is an unacceptable term for the cristate forms.However, registration and the descriptive terms used to market or describe a cultivar are always a hybridizers choice, even when the use of these terms prove confusing, It is always advisable to educate yourself following the AHS guidelines.

The cristations can have different shapes as you can see with the two examples above and the cristation can grow attached to the midrib or petal surfaces - I have a seedling with cristations on the back petal surface. Both of these are very pretty pleated cristates! I agree with everyone on the consistancy issue, but with only a dozen or so of the surface cristates registered, it will take time to work in the many traits we desire. Personally, I am not aware of any that are 100% cristate.
For folks wanting to learn more on the Sculpted forms there is a forum in the AHS portal and also an email robin on Yahoo.
Name: Lyle
Phoenix
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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lyle627
Dec 8, 2011 8:48 AM CST
Char - It seems you have a lot of respect for the AHS, and their wisdom.....Can you tell me how Bill Maryott represents Region 7 when there is no REGION 7?
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Dec 8, 2011 9:34 AM CST
Lyle I do not think Bill is the only one to represent another region other than there own. Some of the small regions do not have anyone qualified, or anyone who wants to take the position, so they can choose someone from another region to represent them.
Name: Lyle
Phoenix
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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lyle627
Dec 8, 2011 10:09 AM CST
I can't understand one of the largest states in US with a farm belt the size of Ohio (California) can't put together a region, with some well recognized hybridizers.

Think about how many states would fit inside the boarders of California...

Anyway to end this I would like to see Arizona and New Mexico make a region or New Mexico join region 7 but guess what you need AHS permission to change regional boundaries..

This is off topic and I will end this, but my thoughts...


Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 8, 2011 10:22 AM CST

Moderator

Lyle, I have nothing to do with the election of Regional officers outside my own Region 4 ... As near as I can see from the AHS website there is a Region 7 which includes Arizona, California, Hawaii and Nevada. There are no Regional officers listed for Region 7. Why, I don't know, maybe someone from Region 7 should ask this question of AHS.
Respect, yes, many people volunteer countless hours working within AHS, much of which goes unnoticed.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 8, 2011 11:13 AM CST

Moderator

This is one of the midrib cristate seedlings that bloomed here this summer. A cross with Screen Pattern and one of my pleated relief seedlings 0806.This year was the first in seeing sdlg's from 0806, the cristate forms were a pleasent surprise! I love the white teeth on your purple sdlg, Lyle. I can only imagine how these forms will evolve as we add more colors and edges to them...along with consistancy, plant habit, br/bdct....

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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Dec 8, 2011 3:19 PM CST
Nice seedling Char. These forms are not something I will be doing a lot of work with, to much other stuff going on here. I just got up one morning and there it was, these daylilies have no mercy on you as far as getting what your looking far, I certainly wasn't looking for a CRISTATE when this thing started showing it's @@@@.
Name: Lyle
Phoenix
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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lyle627
Dec 9, 2011 12:12 PM CST
Thanks Char- That is a very nice seedling! I have never entered into the Cristate hybridizing, and I do see your seedling qualifies. I can’t tell what Fred's is doing the photo is too small to see down the throat. I have seen a lot of the pinched throat and some does look nice but the petal along the mid rib is interesting.

I had a seedling in 2008 that had extra petal coming from the mid rib but I had no idea at that time there would be a form.


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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 9, 2011 5:49 PM CST

Moderator

Thank you Fred and Lyle.

Fred, I sure understand the no mercy. Actually, I think seedlings all have some warped sense of humor. We stand in the field with them laughing all around us as we sratch our heads wondering where in the heck that came from Smiling I've worked with pattern eyezones and sculpted forms for 10 years now and the surprise factor is a big part of the fun.

Lyle, very pretty, I like the mutiple layer look of the cristation on this seedling. I did notice you said "had", does that mean you tossed it? For many years the cristates were thought to be a type of Double, some were registered this way, but they are not Doubles. The raised up look seen in some of the pleated and pleated cristate forms is so pretty from the side as you approach the bloom, different and unique when compared to a typical single form.
Name: Juli
(Zone 5b)
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daylily
Dec 9, 2011 6:12 PM CST
Char - I am so glad you chimed in here! I was going to write to you and ask if you would come and explain sculpts. I have been growing and blooming seedlings of all the forms for more than 10 years, but I am not good with explaining the correct terms.
Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

Charter ATP Member Region: Gulf Coast I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Seller of Garden Stuff Dog Lover Region: United States of America
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spunky1
Dec 10, 2011 8:27 AM CST
Here is a larger photo for Lyle. I do not think this one has anything on the midribs, I also think that some of this type form is caused from the heat and will only do this durning the hottest months of the summer. I see several daylilies every year with different amounts of cristateing that normally has none, but never one that had this amount on so many of the blooms.
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Name: Lyle
Phoenix
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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lyle627
Dec 10, 2011 9:53 AM CST
Char - I did remove the seedling. The bloom never doubled, or became a stable single form, if I would have known then what I know now I would have kept it, or give it to someone with a program, and see if it would pass along any of its traits.

Thanks Fred - I can see the center better in the photo you posted. I don't know what form you will register it as, but it is very nice even as a single form.
Quilled Crispates
Definition: Quilling - Floral segments turn upon themselves parallel to the midrib to form a tubular shape.


I don't hybridize for UFS but i now have a friend with a northern garden that wants to grow them for me, so he will have these seedlings ready by next spring.


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I agree with heat being a factor when it comes to form heat will make daylilies do some strange things.


This is a seedling that came from seeds purchased from Cindy (Hemlady) heat is not a form changing factor this seedling bloomed at 6500 feet
WILSON SPIDER X LILTING BELLE X VAMPIRE LESTAT

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