Sempervivum forum: Question about names and "Chick Charms"

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Name: Lisa Klette
Dayton, KY (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Irises Dahlias Sempervivums Hostas Region: Kentucky
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Lilydaydreamer
Jun 9, 2017 9:49 AM CST
Hello all, I have not been on this form in a while and this may have already been discussed but can anyone tell me what the deal is with the Chick Charms?

I had a friend give me CC Cinnamon Starburst and found out it is the same as Jeanne d' Arc?

I did find this article
http://www.ballpublishing.com/...

Was the renaming to get a trademark?
Is it common to rename semps?

Thanks,
Lisa
Love what you teach and teach what you love!
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
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valleylynn
Jun 9, 2017 11:44 AM CST

Moderator

Hi Lisa, good to see you. Hope this information is helpful.

Yes to the trademark, it is part of marketing to increase interest in the public.
It is the first time this has been done with sempervivum. The only one under the Chick Charms trademark right now that does not have two names is 'Gold Nugget'. Chris Hansen introduced that one as a stable sport from 'Ruby Heart', an old cultivar by Kevin Vaughn.
There are going to be some additions to the Chick Charm series in the next couple of years that will be brand new cultivars bred by Kevin Vaughn. They will not have two names, just the Chick Charm name on these new cultivars.
It is not uncommon in the nursery world to give new names to old cultivars that the patent has run out, or were never patented.

You can look the names up in our NGA database and it will show the original name, plus the new Chick Charm name.
Name: Lisa Klette
Dayton, KY (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Irises Dahlias Sempervivums Hostas Region: Kentucky
Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Art Lilies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Lilydaydreamer
Jun 9, 2017 11:57 AM CST
Thanks Lynn! I figured that is what is was but wanted to make sure. The marketing for Chick Charms is really cute. I can see some gardeners trying semps that had never grown them before. I think I need to get that Gold Nugget!

Happy gardening,
Lisa
Love what you teach and teach what you love!
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jun 9, 2017 12:54 PM CST

Moderator

Yes Lisa, that is exactly what Chris Hansen was trying to do. Reach a group of gardeners that had never considered sempervivum as a plant they would want to grow. And those cute little tags also get children, the future gardeners, interested. Hurray!
Name: Michael
Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany
Sempervivums Hybridizer Container Gardener Cactus and Succulents Region: Europe Garden Ideas: Level 1
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parttimegardener
Jun 9, 2017 1:03 PM CST
Among German breeders/collectors this practice is not appreciated. The comments I saw were mostly complaints about the fact, that it simplifies misnaming of semps and that none of the (living) breeders (e.g. Martin Haberer) was ever asked if he's okay with his semp creation being re-named and sold under a different name.
Even if there are no plant patents pending, it's still a question of politeness to ask, I think.
Name: Lisa Klette
Dayton, KY (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Irises Dahlias Sempervivums Hostas Region: Kentucky
Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Art Lilies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Lilydaydreamer
Jun 9, 2017 1:03 PM CST
Hurray! Hurray! Hurray!
Look how cute this looks!

Thumb of 2017-06-09/Lilydaydreamer/dcef8d

Edited to add
I personally believe the original hybridizer should have been ask/notified even if legally it is not required...just sounds like the right thing to do.

I hope this marketing helps all hybridizers by bringing semps to the avg backyard gardener who never knew about them. I know I started into daylilies with a generic landscape package of daylilies. Then I went and googled daylilies and found a world I never knew was there. Maybe that will happen to some buyers for semps.

Love what you teach and teach what you love!
[Last edited by Lilydaydreamer - Jun 9, 2017 4:11 PM (+)]
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Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jun 9, 2017 1:16 PM CST

Moderator

I see and understand your point Michael. Here at NGA we are trying to keep it from becoming too confusing by having the original name with all the information of breed, etc., and a designated 'Also Sold As' with the Trade Mark name in the entry. This is secondary information only.
We don't have any control over what is done by the nurseries, so this is how we handle it so we can stay true to the original name and breeders.
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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springcolor
Jun 9, 2017 1:51 PM CST
I been waiting for this to come up. Nicely explained Lynn.
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Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
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gg5
Jun 9, 2017 2:53 PM CST
I agree asking breeders would have been the right approach!
I tip my hat to you.

Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
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tcstoehr
Jun 9, 2017 2:56 PM CST
I'd go further and disallow it altogether. Assuming anyone had any control over it.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
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gg5
Jun 9, 2017 3:00 PM CST
It does draw in a whole new audience, but personally I'd have made the real name almost as apparent as the chick charms name (the real name is on the back of the label)

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jun 9, 2017 3:09 PM CST

Moderator

Tim it is not illegal to do this, so we can't disallow it. The best thing to do is be sure to set it up in the database so no matter what name is used it will bring up the correct entry with all the original information.
Name: Lisa Klette
Dayton, KY (Zone 6a)
Daylilies Irises Dahlias Sempervivums Hostas Region: Kentucky
Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Art Lilies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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Lilydaydreamer
Jun 9, 2017 4:17 PM CST
Good conversation and I feel NGA has handled it well.
I edited my last post above since I cross posted with parttimegardener.
Love what you teach and teach what you love!
Name: Jo Ann
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Sempervivums
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ricos
Jun 11, 2017 5:33 AM CST
I Understand how Martin Haberer must feel. At least he did not steel the plant and patent it as has happened in other plant groups and other companies.
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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springcolor
Jan 3, 2018 1:14 PM CST
@AntMan01 Thought you might be interested in this thread.
Sempervivum for Sale
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
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AntMan01
Jan 3, 2018 3:52 PM CST
springcolor said:@AntMan01 Thought you might be interested in this thread.


Thank you Julia, yes indeed I'm interested in this thread.

Personally I don't like the practice of dredging up existing cultivars and rebranding under a trademark name, it's a bottom feeding practice. I realize it's legal, but an unfortunate practice at best. It unnecessarily adds complexity and confusion, each plant then has two names, a real cultivar name + a new TM name. I've seen plant labels that carry both names: original cultivar name (usually with syntax like "cv. CultivarName") + TM name, in other cases like Chick Charms, most of the marketing appears not to include cultivar name, obscuring the fact these are merely recycled cultivars with jazzed up names slapped on them (they also have jazzed up prices).

Two retail online stores have these (that I know of), one is "gardencrossings"-dot-"com" (you can look it up, since I just joined this forum today, I'm not yet permitted to add URLs in posts). On that site, you'd think these are all new hybrids. I recognized some of them as existing varieties, and because of Sempervivum Database here, was able to verify 12 of the Chick Charms and discover their true identity.

There is another online store named "greatgardenplants"-dot-"com" that carries some of them (you can google it, then do in-store search for sempervivum), but they err on the side of real cultivar names (yay) and give secondary attention to Chick Charm trademark name. On that site I found a reference that confirmed my suspicion that Chick Charm Key Lime Kiss is in fact a semp species, S. globiferum ssp. allionii. How the heck can one trademark a species??? That shouldn't be possible.

I would hope that all living hybridizers have been asked permission to have they're creation used for some else's business.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Jan 3, 2018 4:15 PM (+)]
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Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Jan 3, 2018 4:07 PM CST
parttimegardener said:Among German breeders/collectors this practice is not appreciated. The comments I saw were mostly complaints about the fact, that it simplifies misnaming of semps and that none of the (living) breeders (e.g. Martin Haberer) was ever asked if he's okay with his semp creation being re-named and sold under a different name.
Even if there are no plant patents pending, it's still a question of politeness to ask, I think.


List of hybridizers of those 12 recycled Chick Charms is:
Gustaff Van Der Steen
Martin Haberer
Gary Gossett
Ed Skrocki
Andre Smits
Volkmar Schara
Kevin Vaughn
Sandy McPherson
...one unknown hybridizer of 'Rocknoll Rosette' (probably from old Rocknoll Nursery
in Morrow Ohio.
...one is semp species allionii (former Jov), how can one trademark a straight species?
...one is a species selection (to the best of my knowledge not a hybrid);
calcareum 'Mrs Giuseppi' collected by Dr. P.L. Giuseppi

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Jan 3, 2018 4:16 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1613557 (17)
Name: Julia
Washington State (Zone 7a)
Garden Photography Region: Pacific Northwest Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Dog Lover Foliage Fan Greenhouse Container Gardener Heucheras Sedums
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springcolor
Jan 3, 2018 6:08 PM CST
Your unedited post were funny, shows your passion for our beloved plants but, glad you softened the language a bit.

It is confusing to say the least. Chris is a supurb plantsman and his excitement of sempervivum is infectious. I do believe the chick charms label does show the original cultivar name on the back.
Sempervivum for Sale
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jan 3, 2018 6:11 PM CST

Moderator

Maybe Kevin can give some clarification on this topic.
@JungleShadows
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jan 3, 2018 6:13 PM CST

Moderator

Julia is correct. The original name is on the back side of the labels.

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