Lilies forum: LA progeny

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Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
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TsFlowers
Jun 25, 2017 6:54 AM CST
Hi everyone,

I don't get to the forums a lot because of work load, and probably tend to visit the daylilies and Iris forum more. But after seeing some gorgeous seedlings here last year, and liking to dab pollen on daylilies, I thought it would be fun trying with regular lilies. My lilies though always tend to be cutting types. I just cannot arrange the downfacing types.

Anyway, after reading the forums here last year, I bought *a few* more expensive Asiatic bulbs for planting last fall to hybridize with this year. I had read through all the sticky threads on hybridizing, which lead me to the current question.

From reading those threads, I came to the conclusion that *usually* one must use embryo rescue to get progeny from a LA hybrid. So this year, to my surprise, I had a seedling lily bloom in my Iris row. This has to be the progeny of 'Fangio'. Before I read the hybridizing sticky threads, I had been trying to pollinate Fangio with Landini, but abandoned that after seeing only what appeared to be chaff in what little seed pod that seemed to form. Then reading here, I totally abandoned the idea as I don't have time for anything very difficult.

Then to my surprise again, I found a couple rows over from my Royal Sunset plants, a Royal Sunset seedling looking just like Royal Sunset. I'm guessing both seedlings were bee pollinated being self-pollinated, based on how identical they look in appearance.

Because it is unusual for a LA lily to produce progeny, would there be anything special about these seedlings do you think? I mean for instance like breeding purposes *without* the use of embryo rescue? Like so if a LA lily would produce progeny being self pollinated, might it be easier to produce progeny from LA x LA or LA x Asiatic *without* the use of embryo rescue?

Thoughts? Thanks!
Thumb of 2017-06-25/TsFlowers/e6b576

. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
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Australis
Jun 25, 2017 7:13 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hi Teresa,

Interesting to hear you have some seedlings! Good questions, too.

Liliums are almost always self-sterile. So it's almost certain that none of your seedlings are the result of self-pollination. Some Lilium species (such as pumilum and regale) are apomictic, which means that they can produce seed which is a clone of the parent. I have never heard of this occuring with a hybrid before, but that's not to say it cannot happen.

L/A hybrids (Longiflorum-Asiatic) hybrids are almost almost always triploids (3N), which means that they are often pollen-sterile (I would be very interested to know if anyone has ever gotten viable seed using a triploid as the pollen parent). However, they can be fertile as pod parents and you can set seed on them using either diploid (2N) or tetraploid (4N) Asiatics. Statistically you're likely to get better results with a 4N Asiatic, but 2N can work under the right circumstances (I myself have seedlings growing from what is very likely a 3N x 2N cross - the L/A 'Mapira' as pod parent and the dwarf Asiatic 'Tiny Rocket' as pollen parent). As for LA x LA, it might work if the pollen parent is a tetraploid, depending on its makeup. But I'd say this is incredibly unlikely.

Your seedling from 'Fangio' could have any of your other nearby 2N or 4N Asiatics as its pollen parent, or even a mixture (which can sometimes be helpful in setting seed, too). As for the 'Royal Sunset' seedling, it shouldn't be identical to the parent, so are you sure a rogue scale, stem bulbil or baby bulblet hasn't ended up in your other garden bed?
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
[Last edited by Australis - Jun 25, 2017 7:13 AM (+)]
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Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
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TsFlowers
Jun 25, 2017 7:26 AM CST
'Centerfold' is growing right next to 'Fangio'. 'Centerfold' produces a lot of seedlings it seems, but they always look just like 'Centerfold'. I have to keep digging them out of that very same Iris row which is one row south of the lily row.

Now as for 'Royal Sunset', it is in another bed down the way. But, I have also planted 'Centerfold' near it as well. Although the 'Fangio' seedling is just one row over (all my garden is in rows because it is dual and multi-purposed as a "cutting garden"). But the 'Royal Sunset' seedling is two rows over from the 'Royal Sunset' plants. I haven't even had time to get a photo of that seedling which I will try to do this morning. I can't imagine a bulbil or scale being moved two rows over, but it's possible. I had a one-year problem with voles in that very area. My cat got a vole or two, and then I used mouse poison and think I got rid of that problem. But they could have moved a scale. ??
. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jun 26, 2017 8:33 PM CST
Australis said:Statistically you're likely to get better results with a 4N Asiatic, but 2N can work under the right circumstances (I myself have seedlings growing from what is very likely a 3N x 2N cross - the L/A 'Mapira' as pod parent and the dwarf Asiatic 'Tiny Rocket' as pollen parent).


Joshua - are you sure Mapira is an LA? I am pretty sure it is a straight Asiatic hybrid.

Teresa - while it is possible that you have seedlings it is more likely a bulblet got moved from one of the LA's. LA's for me tend to multiply well and produce lots of stem bublets so they end up everywhere. I would suggest you compare the plants that you believe are seedlings to the plant you believe is the parent and see if you see any difference in foliage or flower. In my experience, I end up with far more randomly distributed off-sets than volunteer seedlings. Good luck sorting this out.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator
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Australis
Jun 26, 2017 9:10 PM CST

Plants Admin

Hmm. Thanks, Patrick. A number of sites (including where I purchased it from) labelled Lily (Lilium 'Mapira') as an L/A.

However, digging up the page for it on the breeder's site shows that it is indeed just an Asiatic! Given my successful cross, it's probably a diploid, then. How underwhelming. In that case, I have yet to get seed from a successful LA X A cross (maybe next summer).
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jun 27, 2017 4:40 AM CST
Joshua,

I was confused on Mapira too and had looked further on it to decide if I wanted to add it to the garden. I like LA's but was looking for this one for potential breeding and was going to pass on it if it were an LA. It was listed by a number of reputable places as a straight Asiatic - I never ended up getting bulbs for this season.

I loaded up LA Kentucky last year with 4N Asiatic pollen. Things looked very hopeful - it made a nice pod and when I opened it there was mostly chaff and some really ugly looking seeds. I planted them anyway and nothing germinated. I would guess I could have gotten some seedlings from it using embryo rescue but I was not that excited about the cross and probably will just enjoy it in the garden.

As I shared in the breeding goals post, I think there is an opportunity to develop fertile LA strains but it will take an amateur breeder to do it as the commercial breeders are working in a different direction.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator
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Australis
Jun 27, 2017 5:51 AM CST

Plants Admin

Thanks for the additional comments, Patrick. I have a few other LAs here to try various Asiatic pollen on and a couple of combinations are on my list to attempt next summer. I will very likely post results if I am able to get anything viable.

@TsFlowers - another thought just occurred to me. Regarding your 'Centrefold' and 'Royal Sunset' plants - have you ever noticed stem bulbils on them (not the same as stem bulblets, which occur at ground level or just below the surface - stem bulbils will form on the stem, often near the flowers)? I'm wondering if this is the most likely explanation for your identical plants, as if you allow the stems to die back, then the wind or critters could easily transfer them to your neighbouring Iris bed.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jun 27, 2017 6:47 AM CST
Teresa - just to clarify. I am not saying what you are suggesting is impossible. It is possible you have seedlings from your LA's. The dialogue was intended to suggest that it is very unlikely and there is probably a different explanation for what you are observing.
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
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TsFlowers
Jun 30, 2017 6:29 AM CST
Thanks guys!

I'll try to check 'Fangio' for bulblets; but who knows when that will be. I'm familiar with them and have seen them on some of my lilies as well as stem bulbils on my Pink Tiger lilies.

Mostly need to get a better understanding of the 2N 3N 4N thing, but not summer; a winter thing.

But perhaps you can tell me in that respect if I might have success with my recent crosses. I really like the lily 'Allen', the pattern on the petals. So I put 'Allen' pollen on 'Dancing Eyes', 'Pink Tiger' and 'Blackout'. Do my Ns match up? Smiling
. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator
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Australis
Jun 30, 2017 6:42 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hi Teresa,

Is this the 'Allen' you mean?



If so, the RHS register (linked in my signature) says it is a normal Asiatic. There aren't any registered offspring, but that doesn't mean to say it isn't fertile. In the absence of other data, I'd assume that it's probably a diploid (2N).

Unfortunately there are two 'Pink Tiger' cultivars registered (one by Laan and the other by Woodriff). The Woodriff one is a parent of 'Tiger Babies' and is an AT. This might be difficult to set seed on. If you have the Laan cultivar, though, then I'd say your odds are good - it is the parent of other several Asiatics, such as 'Pink Giant'. The Laan cultivar is very likely a diploid. My guess is that since you mention bulbils on your 'Pink Tiger' that you have the Woodriff cultivar, as it is the only one of the two that the RHS register mentions having bulbils.

'Black Out' is probably also a diploid and is another normal Asiatic, although doesn't have any registered offspring.

I can't find 'Dancing Eyes' in the RHS register, unfortunately, so can't tell you anything about that one.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jul 5, 2017 3:14 AM CST
Australis said:Hi Teresa,
L/A hybrids (Longiflorum-Asiatic) hybrids are almost almost always triploids (3N), which means that they are often pollen-sterile (I would be very interested to know if anyone has ever gotten viable seed using a triploid as the pollen parent).


http://mokslozurnalai.lmaleidy...

States some of them can be pollen fertile and lists a few of them, but of those that are the fertility % seems really low except in one case for a cultivar I can't find mentioned anywhere else.

Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
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TsFlowers
Sep 18, 2017 9:09 AM CST
Thought I'd quickly check in and give and update on what I will call the "seedling". I get busy and forget about things. Still very busy now will garden clean up and seed harvest. So went to look at Fangio and the "seedling". Here is a photo of Fangio stem where it was trying to form a couple seed pods:

Thumb of 2017-09-18/TsFlowers/344037

Next is a photo of the base of the stem of the "seedling" in the next row over, an Iris row:

Thumb of 2017-09-18/TsFlowers/53ed41

I left the seedling laying down because I didn't have a pair of scissors and was afraid by the time I got back to it I didn't know if I would be able to locate the bulb (which I definitely want to move).

The "seedling" seems to have formed a pod on every stem (or whatever you call that portion of the lily).
Thumb of 2017-09-18/TsFlowers/4133f9

I carefully harvested one pod from the "seedling", but hope to cut the entire thing when I go back out with scissors. Mostly looks like chaff, but some are real iffy. Could be an embryo, could be my hopes.

I also looked at all the stems of my other LA hybrid lilies, which included next to Fangio is Royal Sunset. Also looked at Royal Present and Suncrest. None of these other LA lilies even attempted to make a pod.

What is more disappointing is that neither and none of my Allen, Forever Susan or Dancing Eyes made any pods. And I manually pollinated.

Thumb of 2017-09-18/TsFlowers/59df6c
Thumb of 2017-09-18/TsFlowers/4100e5

. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
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TsFlowers
Sep 18, 2017 9:17 AM CST
Australis said:

Unfortunately there are two 'Pink Tiger' cultivars registered (one by Laan and the other by Woodriff). The Woodriff one is a parent of 'Tiger Babies' and is an AT. This might be difficult to set seed on. If you have the Laan cultivar, though, then I'd say your odds are good - it is the parent of other several Asiatics, such as 'Pink Giant'. The Laan cultivar is very likely a diploid. My guess is that since you mention bulbils on your 'Pink Tiger' that you have the Woodriff cultivar, as it is the only one of the two that the RHS register mentions having bulbils.


Interesting about 'Pink Tiger, yet that has become very confusing too. I guess I could clear up my own confusion by making indication that it is the Woodriff cultivar as I don't recall it ever having any seed pods. But I do have baby seedlings all over in my walk paths, but I'm guessing those are from the stem-bulbils that have fallen to the ground and are growing.
. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
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TsFlowers
Sep 18, 2017 9:24 AM CST
Australis said:

I can't find 'Dancing Eyes' in the RHS register, unfortunately, so can't tell you anything about that one.


Hmmm? I think I got them from a company like VanBorgondien, which I now do not trust at all with Iris; perhaps their lilies are the same. Maybe there really isn't a 'Dancing Eyes' RHS registered cultivar?

. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
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TsFlowers
Sep 18, 2017 9:46 AM CST
P.S. If there are viable seeds from the "seedling", I did not manually pollinate any of the flowers at all. It would totally be self-pollinated or open-pollinated.
. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Sep 18, 2017 4:08 PM CST
TsFlowers said:P.S. If there are viable seeds from the "seedling", I did not manually pollinate any of the flowers at all. It would totally be self-pollinated or open-pollinated.


That's often how many of the unusual wide crosses in beardless iris have happened so it's never something I'd rule out. It's funny reading some of the history of them where a hybridiser manually pollinated year after year after year and nothing, then right when they gave up it pollinated itself in a way that shouldn't have been possible.

This year, I'll be doing a lot of LA x 4n A crosses (and a bunch of other wides) using Honesty and Eyeliner (as the LA's) as both are reported to produce viable seed (to some extent)....so may have results on seed/germination sometime around March 2018
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
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TsFlowers
Oct 9, 2017 12:04 PM CST
Somehow I got to questioning some things, and I'm definitely not up on lilium except to use them with the varieties I like as cut flowers at the market. I looked up 'Pink Tiger' here in the database and couldn't find one. (?)

So I wondered about 'Pink Tiger' by Woodriff and went to RHS to look it up:
‘Pink Tiger’ (Woodriff) I(b/c)
Parentage: (regale × unknown) X diploid lancifolium
R: L. Woodriff (pre 1950), N: L. Woodriff (1954), REG:
L. Woodriff (1988)
Inside creamy pink, tepal-tips pink, centre orange;
outside darker pink; spots present; nectaries green; pollen
brown. Fls 125 mm wide, scented; tepals 75 × 25 mm,
margins smooth, tips slightly recurved. Lvs scattered, 100
× 25 mm, mid green. Stems 1.2 m, speckled green, with
c.6 fls and with bulbils. July.
(Published in Fairyland Begonia & Lily Cat. , c.1960. See
note under ‘Pink Tiger’ (Laan).)

My lily really doesn't seem to fit the description. I have not taken any recent photos and this one is back in 2002. I know I purchased from a wholesale supplier and had to purchase 30 bulbs of any one variety, as I purchased 'Aphrodite' at the same time. I believe my 'Aphrodite' is true-to-name. I noticed in one of my wholesale catalogs currently, that they list a lily like "Tiger, Pink" or "Tiger, Red", although one is listed as "Tiger, Citronelle" and another "Tiger, Splendens". They have the Tiger part listed in bold. This is probably the same company that I was ordering from back then, but with a new name because of grower mergers.

Until the post here, I didn't know there was a lily named 'Pink Tiger' (2 for that matter). I thought the term 'Tiger' was the form of the lily, and it was just called Pink Tiger because of it's color. D'Oh!

Here's the old photo:
Thumb of 2017-10-09/TsFlowers/349f33
I see no green nectaries. And the petal tips of mine are usually *very* recurved. Perhaps I just have some pink lily? I don't see in the registered description whether the Pink Tiger by Woodriff is outfacing or downfacing.

. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Oct 9, 2017 2:50 PM CST
I think the (b/c) is used to classified facing, someone will be able to explain it in depth, I'm running late for work Blinking
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator
Image
Australis
Oct 9, 2017 4:31 PM CST

Plants Admin

From the registry:

Flower aspect is encoded as:
a up-facing
b out-facing
c down-facing

Flower form is encoded as:
a trumpet-shaped
b bowl-shaped
c flat (or with only tepal-tips recurved)
d with tepals recurved (i.e. with more than just the tip recurved or reflexed and with the Turk’s cap form as the ultimate state)


So (b/c) would be out-facing and flat (or with tepal-tips recurved). I think yours isn't far from that description, but I'd have thought it might be better described as (b/c-d).

I'd be inclined to think that you do have some generic lily. Unfortunately many lancifolium-derived cultivars (or even just spotted ones!) are called "Tiger Lilies" (despite L. lancifolium being the true "Tiger Lily"), so if your catalogue says "Tiger, Pink", it's probably just a generic spotted pink. The "Tiger, Red" might be 'Red Velvet', as that one seems pretty common.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Teresa
Indiana (Zone 5b)
Cat Lover Lilies Daylilies Irises Cut Flowers Canning and food preservation
Butterflies Birds Bee Lover Annuals Seller of Garden Stuff Vegetable Grower
Image
TsFlowers
Oct 9, 2017 5:16 PM CST
Thanks for the help! And Joshua, that helped a lot. I didn't spend enough time reading to get all the codes of the registry.

With respect to the original reason for this thread, I did sow everything I obtain out of the one pod from my 'Fangio' lily (in one bag), and everything from all the pods on the other lily which is either a seedling or another 'Fangio' lily itself, in another bag. I know it's really early, but if I actually get a sprout or sprouts, I will be so happy that it will be no problem running my indoor lights sooner than usual to keep any seedlings going.
. . . it's always better to ask questions, than jump to conclusions.
AND . . . always hear both sides of the story before making a judgment.

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