Time for another discussion, this one is for heuffelii 'Apache'.
Let the talk begin.

tcstoehr said:
I saw Lynn's 'Apache' yesterday and it was solid red. I wonder if mine will ever be. Time will tell.

JungleShadows said:Lynn,
Tim's plant looks more like the Apache I knew as a kid, which was then just listed as #1. It never looked that big or red for me back in MA.

Belcore was the other one that Helen named. It is more of a flattened shape and much less intense markings.

Could these have gotten mixed up in the trade somewhere?

Kevin

ricos said:Yes anything can get mixed up "in the trade" and those heuffs have been around for a year or 2 So glad you are around Kevin and have a good memory. I got Apache from Cynda and it is super dark and blooming right now.
HAPPY 4TH EVERYONE

Kevin, I got it from SMG. It has always been on the dark side. At that time I didn't have many things to get mixed up in the bed. It looked like this as a youngster and morphed from there.
When I got it in 2010:

Morphed to this by June of 2011

March 2013

And into June of 2013


It has never been green like your description and what I am seeing of other's 'Apache'.
Here is the one I purchased from SMG.
http://www.smgsucculents.com/j...

Here is the German site. I see a photo by Howard Wills, what a beautiful rosette. Has any of ours ever looked like this?
http://sempervivum-liste.de/Jo...
Trixi (Bodmeier) looks to be the same as Howard's.

Here is Helen's description from her 1973 catalog:

Plushy textured leaves with upper third heavily marked red-purple. Soft yellow flowers.

When I grew it in MA I never had it go red all the way down. It looked more like the ones on the German site.

Could be that it was confused when Helen sold off to Shirley Rempel who sold off to Red's Rhodies who sold off to the original Squaw Mountain Gardens.

There was another heuff (#2) that sounds more like your Apache:

Bright reddish purple velvety leaves with green at base.

That is one I didn't grow unfortunately.

#3 became Belcore, which is much flatter growing and has soft green leaves with a sort of pale violet brown tip.

Could #1 and #2 been switched around?

Kevin

My 'Belcore' also came from SMG a year after I got 'Apache'.
'Belcore' looks to be correct according to your description. Job's Beard (Sempervivum heuffelii 'Belcore')

I can see that I do have the wrong plant for 'Apache'. Sure wish I could get one from Germany, most of those match your description, as does the photo by Howard.

Another NOID for me.
Now it must leave the bed, and the photos must leave the database.
What I have does seem to match your description of #2, but where does that leave us?

Lynn,

Whatever it is, it is an outstanding heuff cultivar. Don't pitch it. I definitely think it would be worth using as a parent and can see some good kids with Clown in the offing.

When you first were telling me how wonderful Apache was I was remembering back to the old days and while it's nice, it was not in the league of the things that Bill Nixon and David Ford created using these cultivars and others. Apache is a better grower than many though.

OK my two cents!

Kevin

Okay Kevin, I won't pitch it. But I sure like the looks of the ones in Germany.

Tim's looks very close to German one in my opinion!
Lynn maybe contact Don from SMG to see if possibly have records about that plant, maybe #2 had a name as well

I like your nApache better, Lynn. I'm keeping the one I got from you 3 years ago.

Thank you Bev. Apache was my very first heuffelii. I was so in love with it when it was here at the end of it's first year in the garden.

Greg I may order another one from Don and see what it looks like.

I don't know what happened to Helen's heuff #2 but I know all the stock went to Shirley Rempel and eventually to SMG. You almost wonder if somewhere in there when it was just labeled #1 and #2 that the confusion began.

Kevin

That could be. Wonder when Howard Wills got his?

Polly and I had it from Sandy MacPherson, which is where Helen got them too. These may go back to Sanford or Purdy even. Helen decided that they needed a name although oddly #2 didn't get a name although #1 and 3 did!

Kevin

I will clean the database entry up when I get home from work.

Lynn took this photo today
Apache

Mine looks correct, I got it from Julia. @springcolor where did you get your plant?

I think SMG but not sure.

Well it looks correct to me For what it's worth!

Looks like mine (pictured in first post above) that I got from MCG.

Tim agreed!

Greg,

Agreed that yours looks correct. It reminds me of the one I knew as a youth.

Have gotten a couple of days of crossing in. Boy, Lion King has such beautiful fluffy golden pollen. I'm not sure Bunny Girl and Yukon Snow will be happy to have babies with that behemoth though! Also got some crosses with Borscht, Jabba the Hutt, and one to be named Black Lotus that could be fun too. Have already mentally saw the resulting seedlings.....

This hot and dry weather has been hard on the plants. Most have lost color although the ones in the shade are doing better.

Kevin

Hello Kevin,
Saw these comments and interesting remarks about plants that I have never attempted in any past gardening of my own. Wish you were in Massachusetts as you had been when our parents would visit each other when we were kids. I am the only one who in my immediate family still genuinely loves the beauty and fascination of flowers and related garden topics similar to my own Mom (miss her and your Dad and Mom of course). I know if you lived in Massachusetts now, I would want to make up for all the missed opportunities to get time to see you and to appreciate your love of plants and music and all the knowledge you have in these areas. So proud of all that you accomplished through the years and hope to see you and your brother if you are here visiting the East coast again soon. You truly are a dedicated plant man who carries so much knowledge in these fields. Love you cousin,
Debbie P.

with Debbie about you, Kevin, being a dedicated plant man and all that knowledge you carry and I'm not even related to you! I, for one, am grateful that you are in our lives.