Plant Database forum: Kosteletzkya pentacarpos

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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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Horntoad
Jul 7, 2017 8:40 PM CST
We have two cultivars of Kosteletzkya pentacarpos listed in the database and I question the validity of the names.
Salt Marsh Mallow (Kosteletzkya pentacarpos 'Immaculate')
Sea Shore Mallow (Kosteletzkya pentacarpos 'ACE Basin')

The only mention I can find for these is the Plant Delights Nursery website and they list both of these as wild collected specimens. If they are wild collected then they can't be called cultivars. It sounds to me like nursery marketing tactics, rather than legitimate cultivars.

Here are the Plant Delights listings.
https://www.plantdelights.com/...
https://www.plantdelights.com/...
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


[Last edited by Horntoad - Jul 16, 2017 10:11 AM (+)]
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Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Jul 17, 2017 4:14 PM CST
@eclayne @zuzu does anybody want to tackle this one, it's been about 10 days since I posted it.
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
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eclayne
Jul 17, 2017 5:41 PM CST

Plants Admin Emeritus

Sorry for not responding to this sooner Jay. When wild collected plants are brought into cultivation and given names it's just my opinion that in the absence of an ICRA it's very subjective determining what is and isn't a legitimate name. There is no ICRA for Kosteletzkya.

Per the ICNCP Article 20: Names of Wild Plants Brought into Cultivation 20.2 Plants of a species or lower taxon brought into cultivation may not demonstrate the range of variation associated with that taxon in the wild. If an assemblage of those plants has one or more characters that make it worth distinguishing, it may be given a cultivar or Group name.


I don't know if the two entries you listed are worth distinguishing.
Evan
Name: Evan
Pioneer Valley south, MA, USA (Zone 6a)
Charter ATP Member Aroids Irises I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Tropicals Vermiculture
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eclayne
Jul 17, 2017 5:49 PM CST

Plants Admin Emeritus

Anyone else care to opine?
Evan
[Last edited by eclayne - Jul 17, 2017 6:15 PM (+)]
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
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zuzu
Jul 17, 2017 6:59 PM CST

Plants Admin

They don't sound completely illegitimate to me, and in the absence of an official registration organization for this genus, I think we can allow some leeway in this case. I think they should continue to be listed as cultivars in our database.
Name: Jay
Nederland, Texas (Zone 9a)
Region: Texas Region: Gulf Coast Charter ATP Member I helped beta test the first seed swap I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Tip Photographer Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level Hibiscus
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Horntoad
Jul 17, 2017 9:16 PM CST
A cultivar is a cultivated variety, one that is man made, not a wild species. You can't just dig up or collect seeds from a wild plant and tack a name on and call it a legitimate cultivar. As I said in the first post it looks like a marketing tactic. Even if these particular plants are slightly different from the norm, it still doesn't make them legitimate cultivars. Look at Hibiscus moscheutos for example, it's an extremely variable species. From white to deep pink and variable shades in between. Some have red eyes some don't. If someone goes out and collects samples of all these varieties and add a name in single quotes, would you consider that legitimate?
wildflowersoftexas.com
texasnatureonline.com


Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
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Australis
Jul 17, 2017 10:56 PM CST

Plants Admin

I think there needs to be a bit of clarification over what is officially considered a cultivar. As per Evan's post, a cultivar can be a wild-collected plant or group of plants if it has some traits worth distinguishing. So a cultivar needn't be a man-made hybrid (even if it's a cross within a species) - a wild-collected plant can be legitimately named (this happened a great deal with early Orchid collections - examples of species brought back for cultivation were named).

The question becomes, then, whether these plants are distinct enough to deserve having a clonal or cultivar name. On this point, I simply don't know. If they are an excellent or unusual example of the species, then I would argue yes. At the moment I would probably err on the side of having the cultivars in the database (especially given the lack of a central registration authority for the genus), although would be happy to hear additional thoughts/arguments against this. A potential compromise might be to add a comment to these two entries noting the origin and lack of central authority.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
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Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
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zuzu
Jul 17, 2017 11:04 PM CST

Plants Admin

I think your definition of cultivar is too limited, Jay. A cultivar is not necessarily man-made. Rose sports, for instance, are given cultivar names even though they aren't man-made and are discovered rather than being hybridized. A cultivar does require selective breeding, but that can happen even with a seedling of a wild plant. If a unique seedling of a wild plant is isolated and is reproduced with a view to retaining the characteristics of the parent in subsequent generations, it can be a cultivar. Using the place of discovery as the cultivar name is quite common. I can think of many clarkias and deciduous azaleas, for instance, that have the site of their discovery in their cultivar names.

When I hit "Preview," I found that Australis had also responded. I'm sorry if much of this post will sound redundant, but I think these observations warrant repetition.
[Last edited by zuzu - Jul 17, 2017 11:09 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 18, 2017 6:10 AM CST
Glad to read the explanations, I learned something.

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