Lilies forum: Crazy Cross Confessions

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Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jul 15, 2017 9:48 AM CST
My name is Patrick and I make some crazy crosses...

Started this thread as it came to me that the cross I was making this morning was a really long shot. If you are new to hybridizing or are not familiar with the demonstrated limits of making hybrids in lilies, they tend to cross fairly easily in certain combinations of species and hybrids from those species but there are many combinations that are very unlikely to produce seed or even embryos in a seed pod that may potentially be saved by advanced techniques such as embryo rescue. Anyway - not any cross is likely to work and some are extremely unlikely to work.

With that said - the crazy cross I made this morning was Silk Road x Kushi Maya. For me Silk Road sets seed pretty well with tetraploid Aurelian & OT pollen (10 to 30 seeds per pod) and the seeds can be started normally with no fancy techniques. I believe Kushi Maya is a sterile diploid but I put some mad scientist goop (lanolin paste with Surflan) on the buds and hoping this may have caused the bud to make some tetraploid pollen. I did use cut-style pollination to increase the odds and will plan to do embryo rescue on it if it forms pods. 7 blooms were pollinated like this - fingers crossed...

So what crazy crosses are you willing to confess?
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN, USA zon
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
Jul 15, 2017 9:11 PM CST
Well I'm not shy about this!
See here my very first trials in hybridizing in 2007. From the very start of my "career", a clean pollenation meant stigma protection before and after pollen dabbing.
Thumb of 2017-07-16/Leftwood/cb5d3e

The next year I performed 94 marriages. That was the year I tried Shirley (an asiatic) x L. michiganense (along with many other goofy crosses). Somehow one of the three attempts got contaminated and I got seed, but it still wasn't a good match. This was one of the better progeny!
Thumb of 2017-07-16/Leftwood/7a9114

But I still regularly try things that likely won't work ( Whistling but maybe...). That's why I think it is important to record the failures as well as the successes. When I grew the most beautiful L. majoense, I slapped its pollen on everything I had without success. (I didn't have anything else in the nepalense/primulinum clan, though.) And I am still trying to find something that will take L. papilliferum pollen (other than another L. papilliferum, of course).

Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jul 16, 2017 4:07 PM CST
Mine are only crazy in the sense of low initial selection and being sent the wrong thing.

Like NOID LA (should have been Pearl Jennifer) pollen to Tiger Babies.
and mix pollen of those + oriental to orientals.
No pods on anything hurray!

next (as I dont think they'll bloom this season if they take 8ish months) will be a lot of philipenese and formosanum on any and everything and recieving a mix pollen of everything. They'll likely only accept each other, longiflorum (white dragon) and if lucky something on the trumpet/henryi side of things (so can atleast bring genes up to triploid level)
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jul 18, 2017 7:13 AM CST
I have done some crazy crosses over the years. Many of which I'm forgetting. I have an LO called Pink Heaven which I had heard somewhere was tetra so I basically put its pollen on any of the wide crosses that have Longiflorum.

I have put it on Lankon, Easter Morn, and Fusion this year! I have also put speciosum album on asiatics, and other crazy stuff. I guess you never know. Somehow pink tiger was supposedly regale x lancifolium without embryo rescue! A little less crazy is I put tetra asiatic and tetra trumpet pollen on Nightrider, a TA. We'll see what happens.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Jul 18, 2017 4:50 PM CST
I'm very interested in pink heaven x Easter morn and would be doing the same if I had access to them so be sure to post results
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jul 27, 2017 7:38 AM CST
Thanks for chiming in with your confessions! I always appreciate knowing I am not the only one who shoots for the moon.

Lastest cross - Silk Road x Anastasia. The Anastasia buds were treated with a lanolin/Surflan paste with hopes to create fertile pollen. Silk Road is reasonably fertile for me so fingers are crossed. One thing I find hopeful is the change in the appearance of the pollen from Anastasia. Normally the pollen is a mix of orange/brown and greasy looking. The pollen I collected looks fluffy and bright orange. I wish I knew how to use my microscope to look at this stuff - didn't get that far to figure that out yet.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jul 27, 2017 10:48 AM CST
So for those that try these crazy wide crosses - do you use cut style pollination or standard pollination on the stigma?

For those not familiar with this, I will explain. There has been a fair amount of research done on overcoming compatibilities in crosses within Lilium species and hybrids. The barriers to crossing have been generally grouped into pre-fertilization and post-fertilization barriers. From what I have read, all of the pre-fertilization barriers identified are found in the stigma/style. There are two barriers described for this:

1) Pollen tube is too short - so of you take pollen of say a martagon and put it on a trumpet lily, the pollen needs to travel more than three times further to have a viable fertilization in a trumpet lily than it would in a martagon. This is a physical limitation of the pollen based on the size of the flower it would normally pollinate.

2) Stigma/Style pollen recognition & growth retardation - the pollen tube growth of a non-compatible lily is stopped or slowed by some chemical incompatibility trigger in the stigma/style. They found through dyeing of pollen tubes that can see them hit a brick wall so to speak as they try to travel from the stigma through the style to the ovary. In some cases the pollen tubes ball up and stop growing in the proper direction and in other cases they pollen tube growth is just slowed down significantly.

The idea of cut style pollination (or amputated style pollination) is to remove the majority of the style so only a small portion remains. The hope is to reduce or eliminate the affect of the stigma/style inhibitions to foreign pollen. It also reduces the distance a pollen grain has to travel to reach the ovary and hopefully fertilize an ovule.

So to answer my own question - yes, if there is any concern that the cross will be incompatible I will employ cut style pollination.

This is very easy to do - simple take a razor and cut the style around 1 cm from where it attaches to the ovary. I cut it at a 45 or 60 degree angle to increase the surface area for pollen to be applied. Some people further cut the style with a razor in a crisscross action to create more surface area for the pollen to stick too and allowing for pollen to be packed on the tip of the cut style. I have also heard mentioned that someone uses a piano wire to push some of the pollen into the center cavity of the style. I then cap it with foil - some use parafilm. I think it is important to cap it:
1) prevents cross contamination (and false hope of a true wide cross)
2) keeps the pollen in place - doesn't let it get washed off or cleaned off by a pollen robber
3) it allows for a more humid environment for the pollen to germinate

Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jul 27, 2017 4:14 PM CST
Very interesting Patrick. My response will be brief for now but are you looking to take Anastasia to 6N for fertile pollen. I was able to use it successfully as a pod parent last year with pollen of Carte Blanche. Seedlings are currently growing.

Regarding cut style, have you ever heard of a situation where it was used to obtain regular non embryo rescue seed?
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jul 27, 2017 6:05 PM CST
Joebass said:Very interesting Patrick. My response will be brief for now but are you looking to take Anastasia to 6N for fertile pollen. I was able to use it successfully as a pod parent last year with pollen of Carte Blanche. Seedlings are currently growing.

Regarding cut style, have you ever heard of a situation where it was used to obtain regular non embryo rescue seed?


Joe - yes, trying to get 6N for pollen fertility. I have tried many different combinations to get seed from Anastasia as a pod parent with no success - I will try Carte Blanche! Judith has said it should have some fertility as a pod parent - I just haven't found a combination that works.

So Cut Style is for pre-fert barriers - embryo rescue is for post fert barriers. It really depends on the combination whether ER is needed. I will make the same cross on many flowers and will do ER on a few pods to start. If things looks good inside the first pods I will leave the other pods of the same cross to ripen normally. When I did this last year I was pretty disappointed at the seeds from the pods that ripened normally and then too with the germination. Some of these crosses were done with cut style and others were with standard pollinations. So I have done all 4 combinations (CS no ER, CS with ER, no CS no ER, & no CS with ER). My take is that if it is a wide cross I really need to do both CS & ER. You really don't want to do CS for standard compatible crosses as the stigma gives greater surface as well as stigmatic fluid that helps the pollen germinate.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jul 27, 2017 7:28 PM CST
Speaking of crazy crosses, I put henryi var citrinum pollen on my L. Primulinum today.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Jul 28, 2017 12:04 PM CST
Good luck with the primulinum x henryi citrinum! My citrinum will not bloom this year as it was hit with the frost - hoping it returns next year. Betty Sturley is making up for it and putting on a nice show.

Thought I would post a picture of two blooms of White Henryi. The first was treated with my lanolin Surflan paste and the second is a normal untreated flower on the same stem but opened a week later.

Thumb of 2017-07-28/auratum/623358

Thumb of 2017-07-28/auratum/53e6d5

It generally deforms the flower some but causes the tepals to be thicker and wider and intensifies the colors. Still validating if it has the desired affect of causing the bloom to breed like a polyploid...

Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Aug 22, 2017 8:41 AM CST
Anyone having any pods forming from those crazy crosses? I am seeing lots of pods fail as expected. There are some that look ok but I still expect they will not be good as the pods are not growing fast enough. There are only a few that look "normal/lumpy" but again this is expected. One cross was longiflorum x (monadelphum x candidum) - the only wide cross on my early longiflorum that is looking like it might be good. Another is ENA 'Springville' x WNA ('Peachwood' x 'Lake Tulare') - this is an east meets west American hybrid (if it really makes seed). 'Springville' is sold as a red canadense/michiganense hybrid and the pollen came from a friend who raised the pink WNA hybrid seedling from seed exchange seed. 2 of the 3 flowers pollinated are forming small pods - the pods seem smaller than I would expect but look good otherwise. Only time will tell.

Please share how your crazy crosses are fairing.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Aug 22, 2017 7:39 PM CST
Maybe not too crazy but
Nightrider x Nutcracker (TA x 4NA) looks good and feels good.

LOTI (50 bud henryi, mostly white) x Tallboy
Really good

Henryi var citrinum x mixed 4N OT
Good

Silent Sunset x Beijing moon
Really good

Easter Morn x Beijing moon
Real good

0902 (Easter Morn x firey belles) x Beijing moon
Ok

African lady, Timezone, and empoli may have fallen victim to the mixed 4N OTs as well!
Possibles
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
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magnolialover
Aug 23, 2017 4:55 AM CST

Moderator

Lots of pod potentials shriveled up and died. I expect it in a lot of cases.

Each year I seem to have a focus and this year it was the resurrection, so to speak, of Pard's 'S-2', not seen for the last couple years, this year with one bud, so I took advantage of the pollen) and most of the OT pods look good.
S-2
Thumb of 2017-08-23/magnolialover/96402c

The other one I used a lot this year was Tiramisu. Have always tried as a pod but never pollen. Pods fattening. Time will tell.

I'm always lucky that everything doesn't always take because then I'd be in more trouble than I already am.

Tracey
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Aug 23, 2017 8:36 AM CST
I second that notion Tracey! I did 80 something crosses this year. I hope they didn't all take!
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN, USA zon
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
Aug 23, 2017 10:45 AM CST
magnolialover said:I'm always lucky that everything doesn't always take because then I'd be in more trouble than I already am.


Ain't that the truth! I "try" so hard to limit myself, but it's like impulse shopping. The pollen is there, the flower is there, it's so easy, so why not? Big Grin Whistling Hilarious! Blinking

I think this is only one weirdo to report this year: Lankon x Zeus - lumpy pod

Thumb of 2017-08-23/Leftwood/4ac67a

Interesting in that Karen North x Zeus looks as though there will be a few good seeds or so, too, and both pod parents have lankongense background.
Thumb of 2017-08-23/Leftwood/a81e2b

Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Aug 23, 2017 11:39 AM CST
Thanks for sharing - lots of neat crosses here - hopefully yielding some seedlings we will see in the future! I have to add one I looked up this morning. I made a number of Lake Carey (Oriental) x White Henryi (Aurelian) crosses and there are a number of pods that look like they could be forming. I crossed ~25 flowers with this cross and there are several that look promising but too early to claim victory.

I concur that is it good not all these crosses take. I have made ~175 unique pairings/crosses this season with a large percentage of these unlikely to produce seeds. On average this year I am guessing I repeated the same cross on at least 5 flowers - some were a single flower (highly likely to produce seed cross) and others up to 25 flowers (low likelihood of seed production cross).
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
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magnolialover
Aug 26, 2017 1:01 PM CST

Moderator

Home of shriveled up dreams.

Thumb of 2017-08-26/magnolialover/89912b

Tracey
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Aug 26, 2017 1:54 PM CST

Moderator

What is the cross? I bet there are many more potential dreams in your lily patch!
Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Tomato Heads Pollen collector Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Cat Lover
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Photography Seed Starter Region: Wisconsin
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magnolialover
Aug 26, 2017 2:26 PM CST

Moderator

Wind chimes x a tetra trumpet mix.

There sure are. Time will tell. I forget the potential of Anastasia to puff up ( give you high hopes) and then turn a plum color and be hollow. As if to say, "Ha! Had you didn't I ?"

Yep. I'm a sucker. I tip my hat to you.
Tracey

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