Lilies forum: African Lady - Nepalense Hybrid - experiences/details?

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Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Aug 18, 2017 5:13 PM CST
Sooo quick backstory for anyone who is familiar with my goals (feel free to skip to the last paragraph for the question) l.nepalense has some traits I'd be interested in adding to my developing breeding gene pool. Given difficulty in acquiring the magic herbicides that induce polyploidy in Australia (it's highly regulated) I'm relegated to thinking outside the box a little bit to achieve goals.

African Lady is being sold in Australia this year. From what I can find it may be a triploid? Back in 2014 on here I found

Roosterlorn said:
African Lady (OT3n) tested: 2n=2%, 3n=79%, 4n=11%, Less than 4n=8%


I can see some sites say it is an OT while others say it's a second generation oriental x nepalense so that may explain Lorn's OT above?

If it is a triploid nepalense hybrid it may be easier to breed with than Kushi Maya (if the 5 of a kind theory holds true it should be capable of producing seed with viable endosperm if using something that has oriental genes like 4n OT) which would be on huge interest to me.

So anyone have any experiences with African Lady? Has it ever produced seed for you? Any obvious shared characteristics with it's nepalense grandparent? Any info at all really, I can't find much :(
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Ontario, Canada (Zone 6a)
Bulbs Seed Starter Native Plants and Wildflowers
Phenolic
Aug 18, 2017 5:58 PM CST
Protoavis said:Given difficulty in acquiring the magic herbicides that induce polyploidy in Australia (it's highly regulated) I'm relegated to thinking outside the box a little bit to achieve goals.


Gloriosa lilies must grow quite well in your climate. Have you tried using mashed Gloriosa superba tubers and dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO)? Like Colchicum corms, Gloriosa tubers (edit: and every other part of the plant as well) also contain colchicine.

I'm also experimenting with inducing polyploidy with caffeine. The mechanism is different from that of colchicine and oryzalin, but it's been reported to work on many plants.

[Last edited by Phenolic - Aug 18, 2017 5:59 PM (+)]
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Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
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Nhra_20
Aug 18, 2017 6:21 PM CST
I'm interested in hearing the theory of using caffeine along with the method. Odd ball question, but has anyone tried using bulbils for ploidy conversion? Letting the bulbils soak in surflan for an amount of time, then growing them up to see if it worked? I'm thinking it's not much different than using scales, plus a little root or leaf formation. I'd think you might need to weaken the surflan solution though to be successful.
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
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Leftwood
Aug 18, 2017 6:46 PM CST
The traditional theory behind ploidy conversion is converting one cell that then continues to divide and produce the desired ploidy plant.

I assume the theory behind using a bulbil for conversion would be very different, and trying to convert many cells (even if it was just the meristem) to work in unison is not plausible, I wouldn't think.
Ontario, Canada (Zone 6a)
Bulbs Seed Starter Native Plants and Wildflowers
Phenolic
Aug 18, 2017 6:47 PM CST
@Nhra_20

Colchine prevents proper microtubule formation, which leads to the failure of separation of sister chromatids into the daughter cells causing nondisjunction and leading to autopolyploidy.

Caffeine also causes nondisjunction, but not by affecting microtubules. From what I've read on experiments in mammalian cells, caffeine may induce aneuploidy and polyploidy by negatively affecting kinetochore formation. Failure of kinetochores to form leads to a failure of the attachment of sister chromatids to microtubules, leading to the failure of separation of the sister chromatids.

Edit: Both compounds lead to nondisjuction, but work at different steps in mitosis. I imagine there would be different conversion rates for caffeine and colchicine.
[Last edited by Phenolic - Aug 18, 2017 6:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Aug 18, 2017 8:35 PM CST
I have previously seen some good pod formation on it. This year I hit it with a 4N OT mix to see what will happen. I think it would definitely be a good candidate for ER.
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Aug 18, 2017 10:25 PM CST
Phenolic said:
Gloriosa lilies must grow quite well in your climate. Have you tried using mashed Gloriosa superba tubers and dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO)? Like Colchicum corms, Gloriosa tubers (edit: and every other part of the plant as well) also contain colchicine.


They do but colchicine just concerns me compared with the various herbicides from a safety point of view, add in my inability to accurately tell what an extracted concentration would be and well....it's a lot of guess work with a potentially dangerous substance. On the opposite side of that we have triploids available that will produce recombinant chromosomes (and so diversity) to introgress genes into more reliable breeders (luck and selection permitting). I'm just less inclined to convert myself if there are other avenues, it's more last resort territory for me for various reasons.

Joebass said:I have previously seen some good pod formation on it. This year I hit it with a 4N OT mix to see what will happen. I think it would definitely be a good candidate for ER.


Thank you, seems to confirm potential for seed (first step, next step viable embryo's). I'll be doing the same this year (4N OT mix) seems a more viable path than Kushi Maya to acquire nepalense traits I'm looking for based on current understandings of the various papers I've been reading (whether that is accurate to experience is to be discovered).



Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Aug 19, 2017 9:23 AM CST
I think Yin and Yang would be the best for getting nepalense traits into lines. They are not currently available in the US but I suspect they are triploids. African lady is great but I don't see as much nepalense in it.
Name: Dave
Southern wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Region: Wisconsin Peonies Bulbs Seed Starter Pollen collector Plant and/or Seed Trader
Hybridizer Daylilies Garden Photography Dog Lover Lilies Irises
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Nhra_20
Aug 19, 2017 4:28 PM CST
Joe, I recall reason that Yin and Yang were both sterile triploids. Not 100% sure about that though
Sydney, Australia (Zone 10b)
Protoavis
Aug 19, 2017 4:53 PM CST
The not available in the US is the problem as it may take longer to get here (Australia) so at the moment all I have is nepalense seeds that may or may not reach blooming stage given difficulty. Kushi Maya (which is likely sterile, so would need to scale/treat to 4n it) or now African Lady (which is probably the most ready to work with without additional steps).

Just from pictures, I tend to agree about it not displaying much obvious from nepalense but the traits may just be masked by more dominant genes (pretty sure the main trait I'm interested in, night fragrance, will be something that disappears with any outcross anyway and would require large F2 numbers to pick just the few plants with the desired traits) , if African Lady still has a full set of nepalense chromosomes then sibling crosses should be able to bring those traits out...just a lot of if's though with the unknown history.
Anyone with oryzalin (aka Surflan, Embargo), am looking for a small amount rather than 5litres from manufacturer (min size in Australia....)
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Aug 19, 2017 5:19 PM CST
African Lady was F2 when it was released to market.

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