Daylilies forum: Albino seedling

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Name: Janet
coastal southeast NC (Zone 8a)
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rngardnr
Aug 21, 2017 3:38 PM CST
I have germinated some of my daylily seedlings...and one is coming up with white leaves. all of it's siblings are normal green. Will it survive? Is this a frequent occurance???? New to seedlings...can you tell>>> LOL
Name: Paul
Utah (Zone 5b)
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Paul2032
Aug 21, 2017 3:46 PM CST
I have never had an albino daylily or iris or hosta seedling grow........
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 21, 2017 4:34 PM CST
The all white ones don't survive. I get a couple every year out of a few hundred seedlings.
Name: Janet
coastal southeast NC (Zone 8a)
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rngardnr
Aug 21, 2017 8:01 PM CST
Thanks for the help....the white seedling is really cute. Too bad it will not survive. Does antone know why this happens???
I think I will let it keep growing as long as it wants to.....just to see. Actually, I just can't kill it at least not on purpose......because I do kill a few plants NOT on purpose...lol
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
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touchofsky
Aug 21, 2017 8:08 PM CST
I know how you feel. I feel sorry for the little white ones, too Sad
Name: Paul
Utah (Zone 5b)
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
Charter ATP Member Annuals Echinacea Vegetable Grower Hybridizer Tomato Heads
Garden Photography Birds Cut Flowers Foliage Fan Houseplants Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
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Paul2032
Aug 22, 2017 7:20 AM CST
Plants need chlorophyll to thrive and survive.....
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 22, 2017 7:49 PM CST
It is a genetic fault. If the seedling is a diploid then it is most likely that both the pod and pollen parents carried the fault equally (but do not show the fault). When that is the case then on average one out of every four of the seedlings from that particular cross would be expected to show the fault (and eventually usually die).
Maurice
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 22, 2017 8:00 PM CST
I had a pod from 'Holly Dancer' and 50% of the seedlings that sprouted were albinos. I don't know what the pollen parent was on that pod. I had other pods from 'HD' and most of them also had albino seedlings but not with as high a percentage. The only pod from 'HD' I had with a known pollen parent didn't have any. A few other crosses had an occasional albino seedling, but not very many did. That made the 'Holly Dancer' seeds notably different.
Donald
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 23, 2017 5:29 AM CST
@needrain
Your observations would suggest that 'Holly Dancer' carries one copy of the mutation causing the albino characteristic - it would be heterozygous. So 'Holly Dancer' would be Aa (a for albino) and green. Most other parents in crosses would be expected to be AA and green. Occasionally the other parent would be Aa and green. When the other parent was Aa then 25% (on average) of the seedlings from that cross would be expected to be albino. A single pod does not usually have a large number of seeds and therefore may be subject to large random fluctuations in the percentage of albino seedlings above or below the expected 25%. If you took all the pods that produced any albino seedlings and combined/counted all the green seedlings and all the albino seedlings you should get a better estimate (that is, closer to the theoretical 25%).
Under normal circumstances, I would expect that the percentage of albino seedlings from a cross of daylilies that are Aa (ie Aa x Aa) would be less than 25% albino. That is because it is possible that seedlings that are aa and will be albino may not be viable enough to grow large enough to appear above the soil surface. They may die without ever being visible and therefore normally would never be counted.
Maurice
Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Aug 23, 2017 6:37 AM CST
@admmad
Yes, Maurice, I agree with that. Some of those that only had a few albino seedlings may have been from the same cross. It would have been helpful to know the pollen donor on those seeds, but I didn't. I do think it's an indication that 'Holly Dancer' is likely Aa. The albino trait didn't show up in very many of the other seeds from different parents, so the seeds from 'HD' were obvious. Likely that some cultivar otherwise was also Aa. Since albinos don't survive, the more interesting question is how many of the green seedlings inherited the albino gene? Would that be 50% with the gene and 25% without it if the numbers of seeds germinated was high enough to basically eliminate the random fluctuations?
Donald
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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petruske
Aug 23, 2017 1:44 PM CST
This is a picture from 2016 seedlings.

Black Cat x Violet Explosion: 1 albino out of 5
Prairie Blue Eyes x Barbara Mitchell: 5 albinos out of 9

Thumb of 2017-08-23/petruske/08c8a1
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Aug 23, 2017 6:00 PM CST
Wow, that is a lot!
Name: Janet
coastal southeast NC (Zone 8a)
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rngardnr
Aug 23, 2017 7:20 PM CST
Thanks for all your answers. So in reality....in my little albino.....both parents contributed a recessive 'a' gene to produce it. Therefore both parents carry the 'a' gene. Wonder what percentage of daylilies carry the little 'a' gene






Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 24, 2017 10:01 AM CST
needrain said:Since albinos don't survive, the more interesting question is how many of the green seedlings inherited the albino gene? Would that be 50% with the gene and 25% without it if the numbers of seeds germinated was high enough to basically eliminate the random fluctuations?

It would be as long as those with one copy of the albino gene (shorthand but allele to be perfectly correct) have normal viability and sprout and survive. We do not know if that is the case for diploid daylilies.
Usually there is more than one gene that can cause albino plants. We do not know if there are genetically different albino plants in daylilies.

Maurice
Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Apr 4, 2018 7:56 AM CST
I know this is an old thread but I have a first seed sprout in the last couple of days on a seed cross from the LA (Elfin Illuson x George Jets On) x Elfin Reflection and it looks white. It was a winter sown one so not sure if it is albino or got frost bite earlier this week🙁. Do new shoots get frostbite and lose their colour when they are just coming up?

Also look to have a white one on Peggy Imrie x Rossencilvia, all the others in that cross are green (1 white, 10 green).

@adammad, am I correct in thinking that out of the offspring of two carriers, about 50% of them will carry the albino gene and 25% will be genetically clear but there's no way of telling which unless you test cross to known carriers?
[Last edited by Scatterbrain - Apr 4, 2018 8:05 AM (+)]
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Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Apr 4, 2018 8:04 AM CST
I got a white seedling in the Peggy Imrie x Rossencilvia cross, too. All 5 seeds germinated, with 1 white seedling.

I would let them grow a bit to be sure, but in my experience, when they look whitish to begin with, they are white seedlings. I have not germinated outdoors, though, in cold weather.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 4, 2018 9:23 AM CST
Scatterbrain said: am I correct in thinking that out of the offspring of two carriers, about 50% of them will carry the albino gene and 25% will be genetically clear but there's no way of telling which unless you test cross to known carriers?


Yes you are correct in the expected genetic ratios for recessive albino. However, the theoretical ratios are not necessarily the case in the seedlings that appear above the soil surface or possibly even what will appear in the viable seeds.

The albino mutations are described as recessive lethals - they kill the plant when a diploid carries two copies. But the characteristic affected, the chlorophyll or the chloroplast is very important for the development of the plant even before the seed sprouts. So some of the embryos may not develop and some of the seeds may not sprout and some of the seedlings may not grow enough to reach the soil surface, etc.

Theoretically we should see 75% green seedlings and 25% albino seedlings that die. Of the green seedlings 1/3 should be free of the albino allele and 2/3 should be carriers (heterozygous). If we use A as green and a as albino then 1/4 AA - green, 1/2 Aa - green and 1/4 aa - albino.
However Aa may not survive 100% and aa may die before forming a proper (viable) seed.
Stout did a preliminary look at albinos in daylilies. No one has looked in depth.

To look in depth at albino inheritance/genetics in daylilies we would need to know the number of viable seeds normally produced by two carriers of the same albino mutation (heterozygotes Aa) - the average number of seeds when they are crossed to normal daylilies (known to not carry the albino mutation). We would need to know the number of viable seeds when they are crossed with each other (or possibly when they are self-pollinated - not as useful) ; the number of seeds that did not sprout; the number of seeds that sprouted but did not survive to reach the soil surface, etc.
Maurice
Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Apr 4, 2018 12:21 PM CST
@adammad

Thank you, Maurice. I love reading your posts about genetics, I always find them fascinating. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to explain it to me, very much appreciated! Thank You!
Name: Nikki
Yorkshire, UK (Zone 8a)
LA name-Maelstrom
Dog Lover Cat Lover Rabbit Keeper Container Gardener
Scatterbrain
Apr 4, 2018 12:30 PM CST
touchofsky said:I got a white seedling in the Peggy Imrie x Rossencilvia cross, too. All 5 seeds germinated, with 1 white seedling.

I would let them grow a bit to be sure, but in my experience, when they look whitish to begin with, they are white seedlings. I have not germinated outdoors, though, in cold weather.


Thanks Valerie,

The fact that you have one too suggests that it is actually an albino seedling rather than frostbite. Don't have anymore of that cross but I have some spare seeds from other crosses that I don't have the room for. I'll get some sent out. It will be next week before I can send them as I am having an echocardiogram on Friday and still feeling under the weather with the new pills.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Apr 4, 2018 3:00 PM CST
That would be wonderful, thank you! I hope your echo goes well and you get accustomed to the new medication, or maybe they could adjust the dosage.

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