Plant Database forum: Which is correct species?

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Name: Lin
Florida Zone 9b, 10a

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Sep 22, 2017 4:53 PM CST
Just noticed these two Euonymus, one listed as japonicus species, the other as fortunei species. I thought they were both Euonymus japonicus species. Confused
Japanese Spindletree (Euonymus japonicus 'Silver King')
Wintercreeper (Euonymus fortunei 'Silver Queen')

Edited to add this link to Oregon State University site where 'Silver Queen' is listed as japonicus species http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ld...

~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


[Last edited by plantladylin - Sep 23, 2017 5:41 AM (+)]
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Name: Lin
Florida Zone 9b, 10a

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
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plantladylin
Sep 23, 2017 6:00 AM CST
I don't mean to cause additional work for you wonderful administrators and I appreciate you putting up with this old gal because I do get confused with database stuff quite often but I have another question regarding these two plants.

I see that the cultivar 'Silver King' is listed in our database with a common name of Japanese Spindletree (Euonymus japonicus 'Silver King')

My database submission to add the common name Silver Queen Euonymus for the cultivar Wintercreeper (Euonymus fortunei 'Silver Queen') was denied with the following reason:

"We never add the cultivar name as a common name. The common names are "search aids," and anyone searching for Silver Queen Euonymus is going to find this entry because of the cultivar name."

*Blush* I don't remember exactly how I proposed but I'm wondering why one can have the common name of Silver King Euonymus but the other can't have the common name of Silver Queen Euonymus. Confused I thought they be listed as:

Silver King Japanese Euonymys - Euonymus japonicus 'Silver King'
Silver Queen Japanese Euonymus - Eyonymus japonicus 'Silver King'

Ok ... I think I need more coffee now. Smiling
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
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Australis
Sep 23, 2017 6:26 AM CST

Plants Admin

Hmm. The cultivar name shouldn't be in the common name for 'Silver King'.

As to which species 'Silver Queen' should be a cultivar of, I am not sure. I'd accept that there is a Euonymus japonicus 'Silver Queen' as per the Oregon State University in the absence of any other cultivar list (and despite being able to find out who the ICRA is for Euonymus, I can't seem to locate a list of registered cultivars to check against), but I don't know if that means there definitely isn't a Euonymus fortunei 'Silver Queen' as well.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
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Name: Lin
Florida Zone 9b, 10a

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
Sep 23, 2017 7:45 AM CST
I guess there could very well be two different species with the same exact cultivar name ... I sure wish they wouldn't confuse me like that. Smiling

I got really confused when searching, as I found information listing Euonymus fortunei as vines:
https://www.nps.gov/plants/ali...
https://www.invasive.org/brows...

and these pages listing Euonymus japonicus as shrubs:
https://www.clemson.edu/extens...
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/...
https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/...

It could be my poor eyesight but in this photo of E. fortunei, it appears to have a shrub like habit. http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ld... which made me wonder if it was actually species japonicus.

Ok, now that I've confused myself to the point of Blinking and cannot decide what's what with Euonymus, maybe this thread can be deleted; or if it remains and I forget and ask about this same plant again in the future ... just point me back to this thread. Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator
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Australis
Sep 23, 2017 7:54 AM CST

Plants Admin

Thanks for all the links, Lin! I'm sure we'll work it out eventually...
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Sep 23, 2017 8:02 AM CST
Looking at this site, and I don't know how accurate it is, there are two 'Silver Queen', one under E. fortunei and the other E. japonicus.

http://euonymus.be/euonymus/en...
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Sep 23, 2017 10:36 AM CST

Plants Admin

I'm deleting the common name of Silver King from the 'Silver King' entry. It shouldn't be there. As for the species, I don't know the answer.
Name: Deb
Pacific NW (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Deer Ferns Herbs Dragonflies
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Bonehead
Sep 23, 2017 10:52 AM CST
I guess I may be confused about the criteria for 'common name.' I assumed anything could qualify as a common name, depending on your region. So, I got to thinking: what plant do I call by the species name, commonly? Silver mound artemisia came to mind, A. schmidtiana 'Silver Mound.' Of the hundreds of artemisias, I refer to this as simply silver mound, and most gardeners then know what I am talking about. Seems like that is what a common name is for. If I am understanding this conversation, silver mound would NOT be considered a common name because it is also the species name. Am I getting this correct? I then noted that another common name for A. schmidtiana 'Silver Mound' is mugwort. That just seems wrong to me, as I think of mugwort as A. lactiflora -- but it may be a regional thing so I can give that a bye. Which kind of brings me back full circle to whatever one person commonly knows a plant as should qualify as a common name. ??
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Sep 23, 2017 11:03 AM CST

Plants Admin

It's not a matter of "qualifying" as a common name. Cultivar names certainly can be used as common names, but is there any good reason to list the name of every cultivar as a common name as well as a cultivar name? A search for "Silver Mound Artemisia" is going to bring up that entry even if "Silver Mound Artemisia" is not listed as one of its common names.
Name: Lin
Florida Zone 9b, 10a

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
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plantladylin
Sep 23, 2017 11:22 AM CST
zuzu said:I'm deleting the common name of Silver King from the 'Silver King' entry. It shouldn't be there. As for the species, I don't know the answer.

Thanks zuzu!

~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Deb
Pacific NW (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Organic Gardener Deer Ferns Herbs Dragonflies
Spiders! Dog Lover Keeper of Poultry Birds Fruit Growers Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Bonehead
Sep 23, 2017 12:39 PM CST
I wasn't suggesting that every cultivar name be listed as a common name. Some cultivar names do become common names, but if we are only concerned with how a search will run, then carry on with whatever your criteria might be. I guess another example might be Autumn Joy sedum. I checked and Autumn Joy is not included as a common name, but is listed under also-sold-as so I guess will show up in a search. I continue to commonly call it Autumn Joy, and have never referred to it as its totally (to me) unpronounceable cultivar name. Oh well. I apparently don't get it. Not a huge surprise...
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.

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