Plant ID forum: Persian Lilac, cut-leaf lilac

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San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
Birds Region: California Fruit Growers Dragonflies Butterflies Bee Lover
Amaryllis Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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NCRAS
Oct 16, 2017 12:39 AM CST
In the past, this bush seems to attract Monarch/Viceroy? butterflies. Just started blooming 2nd week of October. Searched the WWW for: bush, fragrant small flowers and nothing close. Thank you for your help.

Thumb of 2017-10-16/NCRAS/994df3

Thumb of 2017-10-16/NCRAS/b5b1d9

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it!
Name: Tiffany Wreathfresh™
Puget Sound, WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums
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LivingWreaths
Oct 16, 2017 2:53 AM CST
Is it fragrant? Looks like a jasmine...
Perthshire. SCOTLAND. UK
Region: United Kingdom Plant Identifier
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Silversurfer
Oct 16, 2017 10:33 AM CST
This is fascinating.
Where is this shrub?

I thought it would be easy..I love a challenge...but hours have gone by and I am no closer.

Flower......Small, purple 4 petal, tubular, fragrant, pretty...in October.

But what amazing leaves.
Opposite, Simple, lobed and pinnate all on the same shrub.

Maybe someone will id it ..I do hope so cos it is driving me nuts.
Is there a Botanical garden near you?
Maybe they could help.
[Last edited by Silversurfer - Oct 16, 2017 10:38 AM (+)]
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San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
Birds Region: California Fruit Growers Dragonflies Butterflies Bee Lover
Amaryllis Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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NCRAS
Oct 16, 2017 11:16 AM CST
Thank you for the replies. I am in central California. I would describe the bush as being "woody." I looked up Jasmine and am not able to find anything similar. I have what I think is White Arabian Jasmine out there and at my home in town, but this bush is nothing like it. With 200 species of Jasmine, I guess it could be, but I did not see anything similar in my search of the WWW. Since acquiring the property a few years ago, I have missed blooming cycles or not paid attention due the amount of work. I am just now finally catching up and am now focusing on the existing landscape and additional plantings. This beautiful bush gets a lot of shade. In between the house and eucalyptus trees. So perhaps it would bloom more often or more than once a year if in an ideal location? There is a slight chance that it did not get enough water? If that is the case, this bush never looked stressed.
Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it!
Perthshire. SCOTLAND. UK
Region: United Kingdom Plant Identifier
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Silversurfer
Oct 16, 2017 3:47 PM CST
Goodness...I feel so stupid.
We used to grow this shrub...but I never noticed the different types of leaves.

It is Syringa x laciniata. ......"the cut-leaf lilac or cutleaf lilac, is a hybrid lilac of unknown, though old origin. It is thought to be a hybrid between Syringa vulgaris from southeastern Europe and Syringa protolaciniata from western China"

"The leaves are 2–4 cm long, variably entire or cut deeply into three to nine lobes or leaflets"

https://landscapeplants.oregon...

https://pics.davesgarden.com/p...

https://www.google.co.uk/searc...

http://www.botanicaplantnurser...

Scented flower.
Flowering rather late.
Probably better to move it into a sunny spot when the leaves have dropped.

Now I can relax and go to bed...my homework here is finished!
[Last edited by Silversurfer - Oct 16, 2017 3:59 PM (+)]
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Salt Spring Island, BC (Zone 8b)
Dahlias Region: Pacific Northwest Cut Flowers Keeper of Poultry Region: Canadian Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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islander
Oct 16, 2017 4:05 PM CST
I agree
He who plants a garden plants happiness.
San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
Birds Region: California Fruit Growers Dragonflies Butterflies Bee Lover
Amaryllis Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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NCRAS
Oct 16, 2017 9:42 PM CST
Silversurfer! Hurray! I can't say thank you enough! It is believed that this bush has been in place for over 50 years. I intend to take cuttings and plant many more and share some with friends. Thank you! Thank You!
Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it!
Name: Tiffany Wreathfresh™
Puget Sound, WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums
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LivingWreaths
Oct 16, 2017 9:48 PM CST
If it has been in the shade, and it is a Jasmine, it may be that the branches and leaves have 'etoliated.' Perhaps take a cutting and plant it in full sun and see how it behaves. :)
Perthshire. SCOTLAND. UK
Region: United Kingdom Plant Identifier
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Silversurfer
Oct 17, 2017 1:19 AM CST
LivingWreaths said:If it has been in the shade, and it is a Jasmine, it may be that the branches and leaves have 'etoliated.' Perhaps take a cutting and plant it in full sun and see how it behaves. :)


Maybe you could find a Jasminum flower with 4 petals.
To my knowledge no such plant exists.
Maybe you could find a Jasminum with purple flowers.
To my knowledge no such plant exists.

Even if trees get weak the shape of the leaves do not alter.
Even when trees are treated as bonsai the shape of the leaves do not change...they just get smaller.
Maybe you can find a Jasminum with simple leaves and pinnate leaves?
To my knowledge no such plant exists.

Do PLEASE look at the links I provided above to see how perfectly the description and pics match with Syringa x laciniata.

[Last edited by Silversurfer - Oct 17, 2017 1:29 AM (+)]
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San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
Birds Region: California Fruit Growers Dragonflies Butterflies Bee Lover
Amaryllis Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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NCRAS
Oct 17, 2017 10:15 AM CST
Silversurfer, After LW's tip, when I was looking, I came upon Jasminum nitidum which is described as being purple and Dave's Garden describes as "Purple, White/Near White." I actually purchased one of these many years ago and placed it in-between the White Arabian to break up the white with purple. It proved to not be very thrifty but since I only had one, it was probably me...

LW/LivingWreaths, Thank you for the comments. I learn with each tip if only finding something else. Also, I am learning that I need to better describe and provide better photos.

Great community here. Thank you, everyone!

https://davesgarden.com/guides...

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it!
San Joaquin County, CA (Zone 9b)
Birds Region: California Fruit Growers Dragonflies Butterflies Bee Lover
Amaryllis Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
NCRAS
Oct 19, 2017 2:19 PM CST
Looking through my photos, I found this image. So I guess it was in bloom on March 22, 2017. Thanks again for the ID!


Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it!
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Oct 19, 2017 3:53 PM CST

Moderator

Syringa laciniata is a synonym for Syringa persica.

Persian Lilac (Syringa persica)
Salt Spring Island, BC (Zone 8b)
Dahlias Region: Pacific Northwest Cut Flowers Keeper of Poultry Region: Canadian Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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islander
Oct 19, 2017 4:01 PM CST
Syringa x laciniata is a hybrid of Syringa vulgaris x Syringa protolaciniata so it can't be a synonym of anything.
He who plants a garden plants happiness.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Oct 19, 2017 4:04 PM CST

Moderator

And yet it is, and so is Syringa protolaciniata.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Salt Spring Island, BC (Zone 8b)
Dahlias Region: Pacific Northwest Cut Flowers Keeper of Poultry Region: Canadian Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
islander
Oct 19, 2017 5:23 PM CST
Your source is neither recognized nor accepted.
He who plants a garden plants happiness.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Oct 19, 2017 5:40 PM CST

Moderator

The Catalogue of Life is neither recognized nor accepted? That will be a big surprise to many people.
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
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DaisyI
Oct 19, 2017 5:48 PM CST
zuzu said:Syringa laciniata is a synonym for Syringa persica.

Persian Lilac (Syringa persica)


The Plant List agrees.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

Webmaster: osnnv.org
Name: Daisy I
Reno, Nv (Zone 6b)
Not all who wander are lost
Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Image
DaisyI
Oct 19, 2017 5:49 PM CST
zuzu said:And yet it is, and so is Syringa protolaciniata.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...


The Plant List agrees with that also...


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming...."WOW What a Ride!!" -Mark Frost

Webmaster: osnnv.org
Salt Spring Island, BC (Zone 8b)
Dahlias Region: Pacific Northwest Cut Flowers Keeper of Poultry Region: Canadian Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
islander
Oct 19, 2017 6:08 PM CST
Syringa persica = Syringa x persica (parentage of S. × laciniata × S. vulgaris) source: RHS
Syringa x laciniata was first described in 1768 (IPNI). A hybrid cannot be a species no matter how many sources you reference.
Catalogue of Life is just the publications from taxonomists without peer review and acceptance.
He who plants a garden plants happiness.
[Last edited by islander - Oct 19, 2017 6:09 PM (+)]
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Perthshire. SCOTLAND. UK
Region: United Kingdom Plant Identifier
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Silversurfer
Oct 20, 2017 3:17 AM CST
After reading threads I see several sites do call it Syringa x Persica var laciniata...and other combinations.


http://www.havlis.cz/karta_en....

https://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/...

What ever the botanically accurate name it is a beautiful shrub
[Last edited by Silversurfer - Oct 20, 2017 3:18 AM (+)]
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