Daylilies forum: Counting seedling fans

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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 25, 2017 9:30 PM CST
Does anyone who plants daylily seeds keep a record of how many fans are produced by each seedling for several years?
Maurice
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Plant and/or Seed Trader Winter Sowing Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Organic Gardener Composter Container Gardener Spiders! Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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bxncbx
Nov 25, 2017 10:10 PM CST
I try to but my info wouldn't be very helpful. Fans seem to come and go. I try to count in the Spring & Fall but fans disappear over the summer & sometimes will reappear the next year. So I may stop bothering counting since the numbers can change drastically in a year but aren't really accurate.

I really should take better care of them. *Blush*
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 25, 2017 11:36 PM CST
@bxncbx
Interpretations of fans disappearing over summer.
1) That is perfectly natural. A small new fan may appear early in the spring and it can die later.
2) A new fan may appear later in the autumn after your count or a new fan may appear the next spring.

You described some fans as disappearing over the summer but sometimes reappearing the next year. That would mean that they are the same fans. What suggests that they are the same fans?
Maurice
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Plant and/or Seed Trader Winter Sowing Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Organic Gardener Composter Container Gardener Spiders! Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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bxncbx
Nov 26, 2017 8:31 AM CST
I assume they are by their size and that the put up a scape. I've never had a new fan put up a scape their first year. They don't get enough water or fertilizer to do that. They also don't grow very quickly so if I only had 3 fans in the Fall but find 5 large fans in the Spring I know they aren't new fans.

Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 26, 2017 8:51 AM CST
@bxncbx
Are your plants growing so closely together that it is difficult to identify and count the fans in a clump?
On what dates do you count the fans in the fall?
Might you have daylilies that have some fans (but not all the fans in a clump) go summer dormant?
Might some of the fans in a clump have gone winter dormant before you count the fans in the clump in the fall and some of them not?

In your example, If you had five fans in the spring then three fans in the fall and you find five large fans in the next spring would all five fans then flower later that year or would three fans flower?

I am not convinced that your counts are inaccurate. I think there is something happening naturally that would explain the differences you see.
Maurice
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Plant and/or Seed Trader Winter Sowing Hybridizer Peonies Vegetable Grower
Seed Starter Organic Gardener Composter Container Gardener Spiders! Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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bxncbx
Nov 26, 2017 12:44 PM CST
In answer to your questions:

No, my clumps are close together but I can usually tell them apart.

There is no set dates for when I count fans. The last 2-3 years have been bizarre. We've had 70F temps into December. I'm picking tomatoes in November. Before plants would start winding down in late September and my dormants would be gone in October. I'm not sure but I think a lot of my dormants are still green.

I thought summer dormancy had to do with really hot summers. We don't really get more than a week or two of temps above 90F each summer at least the last couple of years. We had drought issues this year but not until September so lack of water shouldn't have caused dormancy.

My dormants tend not to completely die back until after a couple of hard frosts. So I count before then usually. I'm not sure if the smaller fans disappear sooner though. I didn't do counts this year because squirrels/skunks kept digging up daylilies so now there may be some question as to which fan belongs to which cultivar. And I suspect many won't survive the winter anyway.

If the fans are large then I'd expect all 5 to flower. Younger fans typically have fewer flowers than more mature fans so I can somewhat tell age that way. My first year fans are very small on almost all of my cultivars. They don't come close to the size of an older fan until very late in the season (August/Sept). So I know they don't bloom the first year.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 26, 2017 1:16 PM CST
@bxncbx

Summer dormancy is not as much related to high temperatures as the aging, yellowing and dying of leaves is related to high temperatures.
Many daylilies may go summer dormant. Stout called it "discontinuous" growth, because many daylilies stop producing new leaves during the early part of the summer or even late spring. They start growing sometime in the early spring and produce a flush of new leaves and then stop. The leaves in that flush get longer until they reach their mature size and then they stop growing. In a summer without very high temperatures more or less most of those leaves can last through to early autumn and stay more or less their normal green colour until shortly before then. If the summer temperatures are high enough then the leaves age prematurely and can all die during the summer. When daylily growers see the leaves die in the summer they call it "summer dormancy". However, when they do not see the leaves die they are not usually aware that the plants may be just as dormant.
Dormant means not growing. It does not apply to leaves growing longer. It applies to the growing point (meristem) not producing new baby leaves. The daylily plant does not grow by leaves getting longer. It grows by producing more leaves. Each new leaf that is produced also produces a small piece of the crown - which makes the crown slightly larger with each new leaf.

I have not tabulated the growth of seedlings here. However, in more mature clumps (more than five years old) it is usually the younger fans that are more likely to grow continuously through the growing season and the older fans that are more likely to become summer dormant very early in the growing season.

If your counts are in a computer file I would be interested in looking at them and seeing if an analysis could produce reasonable information.
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 26, 2017 2:25 PM CST
@Maurice
I found this thread interesting because I will have about two hundred seedlings (I hope) to plant this coming spring. I don't think I will be able to keep up with them all as far as recording stats, etc. but I will try to at least pay attention to how fast they multiply. They are growing in the ground in plastic cups outside at the moment. They very in age from May till now (just noticed two new seedings in a cup while out watering). So the age difference might be a problem in trying to keep an accurate record.
What would be a good procedure to use if one were to try and keep up with the number of fans produced by each seedling.
Example: Date the seedling sprouted? How many times to check during the year? The same dates each year?
what other info?
I also have problems with critters digging up plants, so keeping an accurate record might not even be possible.
.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 26, 2017 6:51 PM CST
@seedfork
What would be a good procedure to use if one were to try and keep up with the number of fans produced by each seedling.


Try to keep everything done to each seedling the same as much as possible. Where there are obvious differences in how a seedling is treated then identify those seedlings so the information from those seedlings can be separated and treated as possibly different.

Example: Date the seedling sprouted?
Yes
How many times to check during the year?
Once a year is enough especially if it is at a time by which all newly sprouted fans have usually appeared.
The same dates each year?
Yes, or as close to the same dates as possible.
what other info?
That very much depends on what might interest you and how much work you are willing to do. It would be a good idea to record when the first fan flowers.

I also have problems with critters digging up plants, so keeping an accurate record might not even be possible.
.
You should record which seedlings have been disturbed by being dug up (and any other unusual events) so that if the behaviour of those seedlings is unusual it can be excluded from any analyses.

You would not need to record information from all seedlings as long as which seedlings have their information recorded are a random sample. This is one way that you can choose say about 33 seedlings randomly from about 100 seedlings. Choose the first seedling, move its pot or stand beside it in the row, etc. Roll one normal six-sided die. If the number rolled is 1 or 2 then choose that seedling to have its information recorded and mark its pot or its spot in the row so that it can be identified each year. Move to the next seedling, or move its pot. Roll the die again. If the number rolled is one or two that seedling is chosen. If the number rolled is 3, 4, 5, or 6 that seedling is not chosen. Continue until you have randomly (because of the rolling of the die) chosen how ever many seedlings you think you can keep up with for recording the information. If you run out seedlings before choosing enough then start back at the start of the row or the first pots and continue (skipping those seedlings that have already been chosen).
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 26, 2017 6:52 PM (+)]
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