Native Habitats forum→Nuances separating native habitats and permaculture?

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Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL 🌵🌷⚘🌹🌻 (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Jan 20, 2018 9:17 AM CST
What are your thoughts about this? It's all the same thing in my mind, along with "organic gardening." I guess one could practice permaculture with predominantly non-native species, and that would be one separation.
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Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Jan 21, 2018 9:53 AM CST
I have no idea what permaculture is and have rarely looked at that forum unless something catches my eye on the 'recent' threads. Just read through the intro thread, still confused. Kind of a grow your own/live off the land type idea? Shrug. Native habitats is more intuitive to me, and that's the direction I'm currently heading so I'll stick with that forum. Organic gardening is a whole 'nother beast in my mind, and can apply to natives, cultivars, exotics, veggies, and whatever else one might grow.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL 🌵🌷⚘🌹🌻 (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Jan 23, 2018 7:05 PM CST
Interesting comment, TY.

I think of the most basic version of permaculture as converting the time and energy-wasting elements of ones' property into those that require little to no power equipment to maintain, in combination with a no-packaged-products approach. For a smaller yard, all beds & paths, pool, deck, patio, anything/everything but power-hungry mowed areas. For a bigger property, mostly wooded areas with the smaller elements as desired.

My interest is primarily that I don't want to have to worry about having to pay someone to mow when we are too old to do it, and can't stand to listen to or use the thing now. The expense of maintaining, storing, & operating lawn machinery is objectionable.
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Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL 🌵🌷⚘🌹🌻 (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Jan 24, 2018 8:39 AM CST
And I wasn't asking in regard to whether or not one forum is better or more popular than other, or where anyone should post something, just intrigued by realizing that various elements that seemed like part of a same thing to me could be interpreted completely differently, and even separately. Native habitats, permaculture, and organic practices have a lot of overlap, but each has singularities. I always appreciate the opportunity to see something from an angle that I had not previously considered. One could have a native habitat where gallons of 'cides are used regularly. If someone feels like drawing a Venn, that would be interesting!
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The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.
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Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Jan 28, 2018 6:49 PM CST
I agree that there is a ton of overlap between forums. I've found it more to my liking to place the 'most recent threads' in a more prominent place on my home page rather than 'watching' specific forums as I find things I might otherwise not. Kind of opens up my world a bit.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Dr. Demento Jr.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Apr 7, 2018 10:45 AM CST
permaculture which stands for permanent agriculture could be strictly native to the area plant or some thing from a thousand miles away in a area where the climate is similar.
Either could be maintained by standard procedures from the past, or by the so called organic method.

One would be a factual native habitat, or as close to native as reality allows or it could be reproduction of a native habit a thousand miles away.
Either would maintain a native habitat.


Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Apr 7, 2018 10:56 AM CST
I still don't quite understand the term permaculture... maybe I'll go poke around in that forum a bit.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL 🌵🌷⚘🌹🌻 (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
Apr 7, 2018 11:40 AM CST
2 words are stuck together, permanent and culture, it's creating a permanent culture that's more self-sufficient than dependent on being cultivated. I think if it more in terms of the ideas expressed in this book:
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/boo...

Living in harmony with the conditions, so one isn't constantly trying to water grass in a desert, or dedicating so much area to mowed "lawn" that the pollution of mowing it drastically outweighs the grass' oxygen contribution. Cultivating & maintaining anything that does not disrupt the harmony of the environment in the least pollutive and disruptive possible way, utilizing all available organic matter, not using chemicals. IE making the land better and full, with a healthy population of microorganisms and macroorganisms. Branching into planting trees to shade the house so the A/C can be used less, harvesting rain water, etc...
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The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is now.
👒🎄👣🏡🍃🍂🌾🌿🍁❦❧ 🍃🍁🍂🌾🌻🌸🌼🌹🌽❀☀🌺
☕👓 The only way to succeed is to try.
[Last edited by purpleinopp - Apr 7, 2018 11:41 AM (+)]
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Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Apr 7, 2018 11:43 AM CST
Permaculture encompasses a more holistic view including house and outbuilding construction, land conservation, erosion control, etc. More about maybe living off the grid or reducing dependence on the grid.
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Apr 7, 2018 12:19 PM CST
I think I'll stick with the term native habitat. They seem quite similar to me. I don't have AC, I have plenty of rain water, and I like grassy areas. Permaculture is just an odd term for me, sounds new-agey and would likely need explaining if I ever used it. And there I'd be, at a loss for words. Thanks for your efforts to clarify.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Dr. Demento Jr.
Minnesota (Zone 3b)
RpR
Apr 9, 2018 11:55 AM CST
Here ya go Deb, for party talk.

Permaculture (the word, coined by Bill Mollison, is a portmanteau of permanent agriculture and permanent culture) is the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. It is the harmonious integration of landscape and people — providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and non-material needs in a sustainable way. Without permanent agriculture there is no possibility of a stable social order.
Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Apr 9, 2018 11:57 AM CST
Yikes.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Kristi
east Texas pineywoods (Zone 8a)
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pod
Apr 9, 2018 3:00 PM CST
RpR said: ... non-material needs in a sustainable way. [/b]


I wonder how one would interpret non-material needs. Whistling
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Sallymander
Jul 18, 2019 1:57 PM CST
Bonehead said:I think I'll stick with the term native habitat. They seem quite similar to me. I don't have AC, I have plenty of rain water, and I like grassy areas. Permaculture is just an odd term for me, sounds new-agey and would likely need explaining if I ever used it. And there I'd be, at a loss for words. Thanks for your efforts to clarify.


There's a lot more to permaculture. To my understanding, native habitat is just that, the use of plants native to the area to create a habitat for native animals. Permaculture utilizes the presence of animals and other factors to improve soil tilth and soil farming production. Permaculture is not exclusive to the use of native plants and animals. A orchardist might have, or borrow, pigs to come in and eat the apples that fell to the ground. The pig "hoes" the ground with its hooves, eats the apples and leaves behind fertilizer. Or the farmer might use chickens (in search of bugs,)to till up the soil. Permaculture utilizes companion planting, and dynamic accumulators. A dynamic accumulator is a plant that makes nutrients available to other plants. For instance, dandelions and comfrey are dynamic accumulators, as are many cover crops. Dogwood trees are dynamic accumulators, and as such, is a good "companion" tree inside an orchard. Some accumulators make a wide range of nutrients available, while others are most specific. For instance, the "weed" horsetail is high in silicon. Silicon isn't the most needed nutrient out there, however, if your apples were too thin skinned and you wanted the skins to be thicker, to protect against insects, then you'd plant horsetails some distances from the tree, where you feel the roots might get the benefits of the plant.


Does that help explain the nuances?
[Last edited by Sallymander - Jul 18, 2019 2:01 PM (+)]
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Name: Cindy
Hobart, IN zone 5
aka CindyMzone5
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
Shadegardener
Jul 18, 2019 4:39 PM CST
Sallymander - great examples! Didn't realize dogwood was an accumulator. Comfrey I have as well as 2 dogwood types (but no orchard to go with them Smiling ).
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize that we can't eat money. Cree proverb
Name: stone
near Macon Georgia (USA) (Zone 8a)
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stone
Oct 14, 2019 8:27 AM CST
There is a dark side to permaculture...
Some people embrace invasives like eleagnus and buckthorn due to their ability to add nitrogen to soil... The fact of invasive ness is argued around as any plant brought to an area that is suitable to their needs will expand its territory covered to its ability... And those plants are coming anyway...

Native habitat is more concerned with plants and animals that were natural to the specific area in particular... precolumbian.

The permaculture people would point to the natives planting of apios and Osage orange outside of their original location.... Also... Corn, squash, and beans....

Organic gardening is planting anything, but avoiding chemicals.
I go several steps further... There are a lot of toxins considered "organic".
I don't want that stuff around me.

A difference between native habitat and organic?
When the raccoons are killing my chickens, I trap and kill.

The permaculture people would plant stuff to attract the deer, which are good to eat... At my house... I fence the deer out of the veggies...
[Last edited by stone - Oct 14, 2019 8:28 AM (+)]
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Name: Deb
Planet Earth (Zone 8b)
Region: Pacific Northwest Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level
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Bonehead
Oct 14, 2019 8:58 AM CST
The Permaculture Research Institute defines permaculture as "...the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems." My rather vague understanding of the two is the purposeful development of native habitats would also be considered permaculture, whereas permaculture is not necessarily native habitat. My gardens are a mish-mash - lots of ornamental non-native plants, but slowly replacing those with natives. I don't do much in the way of food production, I am more interested in providing food and habitat for the wildlife. I like my songbirds. I occasionally see a rabbit, coyote, or deer - but thus far none have become problematic. As I age, I find it easier to go with a wilder look.
I want to live in a world where the chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
Name: Rick Webb
southeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b)
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ILPARW
Feb 5, 2020 11:30 AM CST
I have a new friend who practices Permiculture. His property of some acres is mostly left to fend for itself with little maintenance and would look so messy to anyone in one of the new mini-mansion manicured landscapes. He does have a good number of native plant species. He also grows some Eurasian species for certain fruits or nuts, plus growing Pecans, Walnuts, Persimmons, Chestnuts, Oaks for acorns, etc. He has two lovely trees that are mostly the American Red Mulberry with some Chinese Mulberry in it for disease resistance and the fruit is so delicious. He has various woody and herbaceous plants growing together not for ornamentality, but for eating something or for pollinators. He also produces biochar of gently burning wood to incorporate it to improve soil.
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Name: josephine
Arlington, Texas (Zone 8a)
Hi Everybody!! Let us talk native.
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frostweed
Feb 5, 2020 4:47 PM CST
Well, it looks like your friend has a good thing going there, I even see two green roofs, the one on the little building is very interesting. Smiling
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