Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum: heuff 'Water Lily' ID

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Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Feb 16, 2018 5:14 PM CST
I'm putting together an order of heuffelii cultivars, looking at both SMG and Mountain Crest. Both nurseries have 'Water Lily', an all-green one described by SMG as "perfect light green rosettes. David Ford, 1994". The photo on Mountain Crest shows a classically shaped all green rosette.

In my selection process, I'm looking up each nursery cultivar on NGA Jovibarba database and on Sempervivum-liste.de, but for 'Water Lily' I find a very different looking plant on the latter site, a highly colored one with bold intense pink to red-brown leaf tip coloration. Now I wonder which is right, plants grown in North America, or plants growing in Germany? Here are some links for comparison:

S. heuffelii 'Water Lily' on SMG
http://www.smgsucculents.com/J...
Perfect light green rosettes. David Ford, 1994.

Mountain Crest Gardens page on 'Water Lily' shows a perfectly shaped green rosette.
https://mountaincrestgardens.c...

'Water Lily' on sempervivum-liste.de, looks very different and highly colored
http://www.sempervivum-liste.d...

Record in NGA Jovibarba dadabase, 2 photos of young green plants
Job's Beard (Sempervivum heuffelii 'Water Lily')
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Feb 17, 2018 3:48 PM CST

Moderator

I checked Ferwood Nursery in the UK. Unfortunately he does not have that one listed.
Some times you can email Don Mylin of SMG and ask the source of his plant. That can sometimes can be helpful.

Might be able to do the same thing with Mountain Crest.
Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
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tcstoehr
Feb 17, 2018 10:48 PM CST
Previously I have written about this very same mystery. I have a specimen from MCG and it is true to the "all-green" description and I assume SMG's would be the same. And not such a pleasing green at that... it remains among my least favored Heuffelii, which is not where you want to be. You can check out the two pics I have in our DB although my plant has grown somewhat since then, maybe I'll post another tomorrow. In any case, do not expect the wonderful pink tips you see on the semplist.de site.
Adding to this mystery I believe that there is a 'Water Lily' cultivar in addition to one similarly named 'Waterlily', but I'm not too clear about that.
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Feb 17, 2018 11:07 PM CST
Thanks Tim, your comments are very helpful, it doesn't surprise me that with thousands of hybrids, and with accessibility to them restricted by country and availability, that some varieties get terribly mixed up. Many varieties lack sufficient description to know whether they're true or not. And the name 'Water Lily' vs 'Waterlily' could be an issue too. In either case, the cultivar did not excite me, so it's not ordered. I'm much more discriminating with heuff cultivars than with semps, so only ordering 12 heuffs out of 160 new semps being ordered.



Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Feb 18, 2018 12:12 PM (+)]
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Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
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tcstoehr
Feb 17, 2018 11:14 PM CST
If you're curious, there was some discussion about this in the 2016 chat thread starting on Dec. 2nd with some followup from Bev and Kev.

The thread "Sempervivum and Jovibarba chat & photos 2016" in Sempervivum and Jovibarba forum
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Image
AntMan01
Feb 17, 2018 11:31 PM CST
I find 169 pages on this subject when searched, too much to sort through, a cut to the chase would be appreciated.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
Name: Bev
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan Garden Ideas: Master Level Photo Contest Winner: 2014
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webesemps
Feb 18, 2018 2:11 PM CST
Mark, the specific discussion starts with this post so you need to look for this post when you go to "page 82" of that 2016 chat thread to see the continuation of that discussion:

https://garden.org/thread/view...
Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
Image
tcstoehr
Feb 18, 2018 3:56 PM CST
AntMan01 said:I find 169 pages on this subject when searched, too much to sort through, a cut to the chase would be appreciated.


The date Dec. 2nd 2016 is the key, just go find that date, it should take less than a minute to find it. For me that is page 164, but I think it's different depending on your settings.
Name: Bev
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sempervivums Container Gardener Foliage Fan Garden Ideas: Master Level Photo Contest Winner: 2014
Image
webesemps
Feb 18, 2018 4:04 PM CST
Oops, forgot about that setting which would affect the page number. Yes, the date is the key. I would go to the last page and work backwards as all the post are chronologically in order from Jan 2016 to Dec 2016
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Image
AntMan01
Feb 18, 2018 6:16 PM CST
Aha! Still learning how to use this forum, and discovering some curious quirks in the navigation of long threads.

Settings > Items per page:
Mine is set to 20 (I think it's the default)
Bev, yours must be set to 40. Smiling

Yes indeed that setting affects page numbers, I tested it so I can better understand how this site works. I managed to get to Page 82, could not find 'Water Lily'. With my "20 items per page" setting, Page 164 is the correct page.

It is possible to cite the specific page, as if a bookmark within the thread, by copying the URL that shows in your browser once on the right page, but that URL will only work for other forumists if they're using the same "items per page count" setting.

Navigating a thread:
The curious thing about long threads on this forum, is the inability to jump to a specific page that's not among the boxed page numbers displayed. In the image below, I can move 4 pages backwards or forwards, or jump to beginning or end. To reach a page like 82, I would need to move forward multiple times to finally reach page 82. On some forums I've been on, the ellipsis "..." is actually a clickable link that pops up a box to allow inputting a page number. Might be a worthwhile feature to ask the programming team about.

Thumb of 2018-02-18/AntMan01/9e36dd

Search this forum:
Searching works well, it's quick. Now that I took a closer look, the search results give two options; a link to individual posts, and a corresponding link to the thread it's found in. Unfortunately, the link to individual posts shows it as a singular database record thus no navigation from that post, it's not jumping to a bookmark position within the thread, as it might in other forum platforms.

For finding right page# vicinity in long posts, using date could be useful, but requires some guess work, click on first and last posts to get dates of each, to get idea of date range, then guess where in the date range to try to get to, but once again contending with only advancing backwards/forwards 4 pages at a time.

Thanks to all for your help so far. And sorry about getting mired in technical details, that's the IT side of my past profession(s), but I like to investigate, understand, then present my findings for collective understanding. I think if the site's technical team could map the ellipsis "..." icon to allow jumping to specific pages, that would surely make accessing the vast body of knowledge inside its forums much faster and user friendly.

Back to 'Water Lily:
Thanks too, for pointing me to the 'Water Lily' thread in 2016, I will be sure to use the search functionality more. The discussion was helpful in finding out there is a Sempervivum 'Waterlily', and Sempervivum heuffelii 'Water Lily'.

The mystery remains, two apparently different heuffelii 'Water Lily' plants, one in the USA, the other in Germany, the latter looking highly colored and not all-green as with the USA plant. Perhaps it's merely a mixup (thus one of them is a NoID), or there is a an unwittingly duplicated cultivar name on two continents, or the plant grows deeply colored pink to maroon red in Germany, but I find this last option unlikely.

Question: is there a singular recognized registry of all Sempervivum names? With so many thousands of cultivars, in the absence of such a reference, one can assume many name duplicates might occur.

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
Allium 'Millenium' - 2018 Perennial Plant of the Year:
http://www.perennialplant.org/...
https://www.waltersgardens.com...
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Feb 18, 2018 6:36 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1643593 (10)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Feb 18, 2018 7:05 PM CST

Moderator

Mark, here is where you can present your above questions and suggestions for searching features here on NGA.
https://garden.org/forums/view...

Just copy and paste your above post and post it to a new thread in the Site Talk Forum.

There is no registry for Sempervivum. The closest we come to that is the database here and the German one.
Most breeders do a search on names to make sure they are not duplicating a name.
And sometimes over many years names can morph. Like 'Mitchell's Gold' to 'Michael's Golden'.
Or 'Waterlily' and 'Water Lily'.
Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
Image
tcstoehr
Feb 18, 2018 7:27 PM CST
Whilst outside today I took a quick peek at my H. 'Water LIly' and noticed for the first time some colored tips on the otherwise green leaves. That's new. I may yet be treated to a pink-tipped display.
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Image
valleylynn
Feb 18, 2018 7:45 PM CST

Moderator

And you didn't take a photo Tim? Confused
Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
Image
tcstoehr
Feb 19, 2018 11:19 AM CST
valleylynn said:And you didn't take a photo Tim? Confused


I know... can you believe it? I must be slipping. Here it is with a bit of snow. It started with zero tip color the first year, then got a tiny bit later, and now a bit more. Not exactly strong tip coloration but maybe it's on its way.

Thumb of 2018-02-19/tcstoehr/f29461

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Image
valleylynn
Feb 19, 2018 1:12 PM CST

Moderator

Well now you need to keep us update on any color changes. That would be amazing if it came up with the colors on the German site.

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