Daylilies forum: At Least Two of Larry Grace's 2017 Intros Renamed

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Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Feb 19, 2018 10:59 AM CST
I received an email from Cindy Grace last night regarding their 2017 introductions:

"I wanted to let you know that AHS registrar contacted us and said some of our names fell through the cracks because of their new system and we have had some corrections. We updated all the name corrections on our website if you'd like to see to make your changes..."

CROSS COUNTRY - Correct name is now SERVANT OF PEACE
BREAKTHROUGH - Correct name is now MYSTERIES REVEALED

Those are the two that I have, but there might be others that didn't catch my eye.

http://www.gracelandgardens.co...

Betty
[Last edited by Betja - Feb 19, 2018 4:01 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1643951 (1)
Name: Regina
Warrenville, SC (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Region: South Carolina Dahlias Butterflies Cat Lover
Dog Lover Frogs and Toads Ponds Keeper of Koi Garden Ideas: Level 1
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scflowers
Feb 19, 2018 2:34 PM CST
Thanks Betty!

@Char
@Dave

I wonder if there is any way to re-route someone to the correct entry here on NGA daylily database when searching for these cultivars. For example, when I search for Cross Country, instead of it coming up as a no entry or no plant found, maybe it could redirect me to the actual name Servant of Peace...
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
Beekeeper Vermiculture Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Sages Plant Identifier Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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dave
Feb 19, 2018 2:40 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

We have a way to do that.

In the entry in the database, edit the plant name and add the old name under the "Also Sold As" field. Save your changes. Then when the edit is approved, the plant will show up in searches for either name.
Name: Regina
Warrenville, SC (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Region: South Carolina Dahlias Butterflies Cat Lover
Dog Lover Frogs and Toads Ponds Keeper of Koi Garden Ideas: Level 1
Image
scflowers
Feb 19, 2018 2:59 PM CST
dave said:We have a way to do that.

In the entry in the database, edit the plant name and add the old name under the "Also Sold As" field. Save your changes. Then when the edit is approved, the plant will show up in searches for either name.


Thanks Dave. I submitted the proposal for Servant of Peace. Mysteries Revealed has not been added to the NGA database yet. Seems there is some spelling confusion as well, but the spelling I used is the one I located on the AHS website (although Betty's spelling is the one on Grace's site). I'm sure it will be included when another update occurs, so I'll keep checking on it and do the proposal when it is available here.

Thank You!
Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Feb 19, 2018 4:00 PM CST
Thanks Regina! I didn't know about the name change of BREAKTHROUGH to MYSTERIES REVEALED in the AHS Database rather than "MYSTERY'S REVEALED" as indicated on their website. I think I'll change it in my first post to the correct name to avoid more confusion.

Thanks again!
Betty
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Feb 19, 2018 5:34 PM CST
BROKEN RECORD TIME:
The naming rules for registration of cultivars is dictated by what is called "the code," ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants.) That is the international governing body which oversees the naming of all registered cultivars. AHS registers the genus hemerocallis, but must follow the rules dictated by ICNCP. Naming and registration rules are spelled out CLEARLY on the database and rules are made clear (at least for those who take the time to read them !)

It is clearly stated that a new cultivar CANNOT be registered with the same or a very close name of an existing cultivar already in the database. EVERYONE is strongly encouraged to check a name you want to use against the data base before you submit. And anyone who has registered a daylily knows that you always must submit an alternate name in case the one you want is not approved. All names submitted for registration must be run past the name approval committee and be approved before the plant is officially registered. If the name submitted is found to be the same or even very similar or violates one of the other naming rules, the first name is rejected and the alternate name then goes through the same process. In a few cases, the alternate name is also rejected, in which case the hybridizer is asked to give another name. This is all SUPPOSED to be done before cultivars are sold and put on websites. Regrettably, it doesn't always happen that way.

It took me less than 30 seconds to check and see that both of these names mentioned in the first post are ALREADY IN THE AHS DATABASE for existing cultivars. That means there is ZERO chance these names would be approved for a new cultivar ( clearly stated in naming rules, by the way.)

So I do NOT believe this name change was caused by "AHS's new system." but rather that the hybridizer did not bother to check whether the names he submitted to AHS had already been used, and secondly, he did not wait until the names he submitted were approved before he listed and began selling them on the website.

ie: Cross Country is already in DB as :
Cross-country (Wild, 1987)
height 22 in.(56 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(14 cm), season La, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, Diamond dusted yellow self with small green throat.

and Breakthrough, yes that name was taken already too, back in 1966.
Breakthrough (Hughes, 1966)
height 17 in.(43 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Pastel rose with yellow throat . (Frances Fay × Duchess of Dallas)


Furthermore, WHY didn't the hybridizer WAIT to list registrations for sale ( when people who buy expensive new registrations usually ASSUME that what they are paying their hard earned bucks for is a legitimately registered name) until AFTER the completed registration forms are sent back? Years ago,registration took months and sometimes people would use names because they had in good faith mailed in a registration form and hadn't heard whether the name was approved in months. Nowadays it is a fast process, and I'm sorry, but IMHO, if you are going to sell plants for $100 or $150 or even more, then you need to be organized enough to get your registration forms in and allow that time for name approval to come through BEFORE you start selling,

At least we can give some credit to this hybridizer, they did contact the primary purchasers and attempt to set the record straight with corrected names, even if they INCORRECTLY tried to throw the blame onto AHS. Sorry, but I'm calling it as I see it. ( And who knows if any plants have already been put into the secondary market under the incorrect name?) That 's how , at some future point, a buyer might check the plant they just paid $75 for, and say, "WHAATT?? I bought a cultivar named Breakthrough that was supposed to be a 2017 introduction, and now it is listed in the database as a 1966 registration? "

Having listened to many furious people that had this happen to them, I ALWAYS CHECK the DB before buying new introductions, and would encourage anyone new to daylilies , if you are enticed enough to want to buy a brand new introduction, PLEASE for your own protection, always check to see if the hybridizer has registered that expensive plant you are buying!!
It is perfectly OK, by the way, when you check, if you see either of these types of wording on the database: ( randomly picked several that will be coming to me this spring) :

'Clemson Girls' (Davisson-J., 2018)
ICNCP rules require that we withhold the description until checklist publication in 2019.
(this tells you that Judy HAS registered this.)

Jammin's Periwinkle Pearl (Singletary-B., 2018) [details withheld until publication in 2019]
This tells you that Ben HAS registered this.

Some hybridizers even register the cultivars in the year BEFORE they sell it, which is fine with me too! ( This is a 2018 introduction that will be coming this way too)
Phil and Louella registered this in 2017 but being they're way up north, they waited until 2018 to introduce it.
Pinewood Green Flash (Korth-P.-Korth-L., 2017)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(14 cm), season EM, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 25 buds, 5 branches, Dark pink petals with burgundy band around large green throat, green sepals with pink blush.. (Search for Green Pastures × Pinewood Lily Pad)

Sorry for the rant, but I've seen this happen ..... a lot.... and hate to see people be taken advantage of. The good news is, I was all set to buy a beautiful 2018 introduction the DAY it went on a website just a couple of weeks ago, and people were buying it like mad. Guess what? I checked first and there was already a cultivar in the DB by that same name. Lost the enthusiasm and saved the money.
[Last edited by floota - Feb 19, 2018 8:04 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1644168 (6)
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Feb 19, 2018 10:02 PM CST
There are two more listed on their website with name changes. I understand the reason for the first three, but don't understand why FOR ALL TO SEE would not be valid.

CHASING DREAMS - is now registered as SHATTERED DREAMS.

FOR ALL TO SEE - is now registered as DIVINE HOPE.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: James
California (Zone 8b)
Image
JamesT
Feb 19, 2018 10:11 PM CST
floota said:BROKEN RECORD TIME:
The naming rules for registration of cultivars is dictated by what is called "the code," ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants.) That is the international governing body which oversees the naming of all registered cultivars. AHS registers the genus hemerocallis, but must follow the rules dictated by ICNCP. Naming and registration rules are spelled out CLEARLY on the database and rules are made clear (at least for those who take the time to read them !)

It is clearly stated that a new cultivar CANNOT be registered with the same or a very close name of an existing cultivar already in the database. EVERYONE is strongly encouraged to check a name you want to use against the data base before you submit. And anyone who has registered a daylily knows that you always must submit an alternate name in case the one you want is not approved. All names submitted for registration must be run past the name approval committee and be approved before the plant is officially registered. If the name submitted is found to be the same or even very similar or violates one of the other naming rules, the first name is rejected and the alternate name then goes through the same process. In a few cases, the alternate name is also rejected, in which case the hybridizer is asked to give another name. This is all SUPPOSED to be done before cultivars are sold and put on websites. Regrettably, it doesn't always happen that way.

It took me less than 30 seconds to check and see that both of these names mentioned in the first post are ALREADY IN THE AHS DATABASE for existing cultivars. That means there is ZERO chance these names would be approved for a new cultivar ( clearly stated in naming rules, by the way.)

So I do NOT believe this name change was caused by "AHS's new system." but rather that the hybridizer did not bother to check whether the names he submitted to AHS had already been used, and secondly, he did not wait until the names he submitted were approved before he listed and began selling them on the website.

ie: Cross Country is already in DB as :
Cross-country (Wild, 1987)
height 22 in.(56 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(14 cm), season La, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, Diamond dusted yellow self with small green throat.

and Breakthrough, yes that name was taken already too, back in 1966.
Breakthrough (Hughes, 1966)
height 17 in.(43 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Pastel rose with yellow throat . (Frances Fay × Duchess of Dallas)


Furthermore, WHY didn't the hybridizer WAIT to list registrations for sale ( when people who buy expensive new registrations usually ASSUME that what they are paying their hard earned bucks for is a legitimately registered name) until AFTER the completed registration forms are sent back? Years ago,registration took months and sometimes people would use names because they had in good faith mailed in a registration form and hadn't heard whether the name was approved in months. Nowadays it is a fast process, and I'm sorry, but IMHO, if you are going to sell plants for $100 or $150 or even more, then you need to be organized enough to get your registration forms in and allow that time for name approval to come through BEFORE you start selling,

At least we can give some credit to this hybridizer, they did contact the primary purchasers and attempt to set the record straight with corrected names, even if they INCORRECTLY tried to throw the blame onto AHS. Sorry, but I'm calling it as I see it. ( And who knows if any plants have already been put into the secondary market under the incorrect name?) That 's how , at some future point, a buyer might check the plant they just paid $75 for, and say, "WHAATT?? I bought a cultivar named Breakthrough that was supposed to be a 2017 introduction, and now it is listed in the database as a 1966 registration? "

Having listened to many furious people that had this happen to them, I ALWAYS CHECK the DB before buying new introductions, and would encourage anyone new to daylilies , if you are enticed enough to want to buy a brand new introduction, PLEASE for your own protection, always check to see if the hybridizer has registered that expensive plant you are buying!!
It is perfectly OK, by the way, when you check, if you see either of these types of wording on the database: ( randomly picked several that will be coming to me this spring) :

'Clemson Girls' (Davisson-J., 2018)
ICNCP rules require that we withhold the description until checklist publication in 2019.
(this tells you that Judy HAS registered this.)

Jammin's Periwinkle Pearl (Singletary-B., 2018) [details withheld until publication in 2019]
This tells you that Ben HAS registered this.

Some hybridizers even register the cultivars in the year BEFORE they sell it, which is fine with me too! ( This is a 2018 introduction that will be coming this way too)
Phil and Louella registered this in 2017 but being they're way up north, they waited until 2018 to introduce it.
Pinewood Green Flash (Korth-P.-Korth-L., 2017)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(14 cm), season EM, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 25 buds, 5 branches, Dark pink petals with burgundy band around large green throat, green sepals with pink blush.. (Search for Green Pastures × Pinewood Lily Pad)

Sorry for the rant, but I've seen this happen ..... a lot.... and hate to see people be taken advantage of. The good news is, I was all set to buy a beautiful 2018 introduction the DAY it went on a website just a couple of weeks ago, and people were buying it like mad. Guess what? I checked first and there was already a cultivar in the DB by that same name. Lost the enthusiasm and saved the money.


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