Daylilies forum: At Least Two of Larry Grace's 2017 Intros Renamed

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Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Feb 19, 2018 10:59 AM CST
I received an email from Cindy Grace last night regarding their 2017 introductions:

"I wanted to let you know that AHS registrar contacted us and said some of our names fell through the cracks because of their new system and we have had some corrections. We updated all the name corrections on our website if you'd like to see to make your changes..."

CROSS COUNTRY - Correct name is now SERVANT OF PEACE
BREAKTHROUGH - Correct name is now MYSTERIES REVEALED

Those are the two that I have, but there might be others that didn't catch my eye.

http://www.gracelandgardens.co...

Betty
[Last edited by Betja - Feb 19, 2018 4:01 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1643951 (1)
Name: Regina
Warrenville, SC (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Region: South Carolina Dahlias Butterflies Cat Lover
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scflowers
Feb 19, 2018 2:34 PM CST
Thanks Betty!

@Char
@Dave

I wonder if there is any way to re-route someone to the correct entry here on NGA daylily database when searching for these cultivars. For example, when I search for Cross Country, instead of it coming up as a no entry or no plant found, maybe it could redirect me to the actual name Servant of Peace...
Name: Dave Whitinger
Jacksonville, Texas (Zone 8b)
Region: Texas Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Permaculture Raises cows
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dave
Feb 19, 2018 2:40 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

We have a way to do that.

In the entry in the database, edit the plant name and add the old name under the "Also Sold As" field. Save your changes. Then when the edit is approved, the plant will show up in searches for either name.
Name: Regina
Warrenville, SC (Zone 8a)
Daylilies Hybridizer Region: South Carolina Dahlias Butterflies Cat Lover
Dog Lover Frogs and Toads Ponds Keeper of Koi Garden Ideas: Level 1
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scflowers
Feb 19, 2018 2:59 PM CST
dave said:We have a way to do that.

In the entry in the database, edit the plant name and add the old name under the "Also Sold As" field. Save your changes. Then when the edit is approved, the plant will show up in searches for either name.


Thanks Dave. I submitted the proposal for Servant of Peace. Mysteries Revealed has not been added to the NGA database yet. Seems there is some spelling confusion as well, but the spelling I used is the one I located on the AHS website (although Betty's spelling is the one on Grace's site). I'm sure it will be included when another update occurs, so I'll keep checking on it and do the proposal when it is available here.

Thank You!
Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Feb 19, 2018 4:00 PM CST
Thanks Regina! I didn't know about the name change of BREAKTHROUGH to MYSTERIES REVEALED in the AHS Database rather than "MYSTERY'S REVEALED" as indicated on their website. I think I'll change it in my first post to the correct name to avoid more confusion.

Thanks again!
Betty
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Feb 19, 2018 5:34 PM CST
BROKEN RECORD TIME:
The naming rules for registration of cultivars is dictated by what is called "the code," ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants.) That is the international governing body which oversees the naming of all registered cultivars. AHS registers the genus hemerocallis, but must follow the rules dictated by ICNCP. Naming and registration rules are spelled out CLEARLY on the database and rules are made clear (at least for those who take the time to read them !)

It is clearly stated that a new cultivar CANNOT be registered with the same or a very close name of an existing cultivar already in the database. EVERYONE is strongly encouraged to check a name you want to use against the data base before you submit. And anyone who has registered a daylily knows that you always must submit an alternate name in case the one you want is not approved. All names submitted for registration must be run past the name approval committee and be approved before the plant is officially registered. If the name submitted is found to be the same or even very similar or violates one of the other naming rules, the first name is rejected and the alternate name then goes through the same process. In a few cases, the alternate name is also rejected, in which case the hybridizer is asked to give another name. This is all SUPPOSED to be done before cultivars are sold and put on websites. Regrettably, it doesn't always happen that way.

It took me less than 30 seconds to check and see that both of these names mentioned in the first post are ALREADY IN THE AHS DATABASE for existing cultivars. That means there is ZERO chance these names would be approved for a new cultivar ( clearly stated in naming rules, by the way.)

So I do NOT believe this name change was caused by "AHS's new system." but rather that the hybridizer did not bother to check whether the names he submitted to AHS had already been used, and secondly, he did not wait until the names he submitted were approved before he listed and began selling them on the website.

ie: Cross Country is already in DB as :
Cross-country (Wild, 1987)
height 22 in.(56 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(14 cm), season La, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, Diamond dusted yellow self with small green throat.

and Breakthrough, yes that name was taken already too, back in 1966.
Breakthrough (Hughes, 1966)
height 17 in.(43 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Pastel rose with yellow throat . (Frances Fay × Duchess of Dallas)


Furthermore, WHY didn't the hybridizer WAIT to list registrations for sale ( when people who buy expensive new registrations usually ASSUME that what they are paying their hard earned bucks for is a legitimately registered name) until AFTER the completed registration forms are sent back? Years ago,registration took months and sometimes people would use names because they had in good faith mailed in a registration form and hadn't heard whether the name was approved in months. Nowadays it is a fast process, and I'm sorry, but IMHO, if you are going to sell plants for $100 or $150 or even more, then you need to be organized enough to get your registration forms in and allow that time for name approval to come through BEFORE you start selling,

At least we can give some credit to this hybridizer, they did contact the primary purchasers and attempt to set the record straight with corrected names, even if they INCORRECTLY tried to throw the blame onto AHS. Sorry, but I'm calling it as I see it. ( And who knows if any plants have already been put into the secondary market under the incorrect name?) That 's how , at some future point, a buyer might check the plant they just paid $75 for, and say, "WHAATT?? I bought a cultivar named Breakthrough that was supposed to be a 2017 introduction, and now it is listed in the database as a 1966 registration? "

Having listened to many furious people that had this happen to them, I ALWAYS CHECK the DB before buying new introductions, and would encourage anyone new to daylilies , if you are enticed enough to want to buy a brand new introduction, PLEASE for your own protection, always check to see if the hybridizer has registered that expensive plant you are buying!!
It is perfectly OK, by the way, when you check, if you see either of these types of wording on the database: ( randomly picked several that will be coming to me this spring) :

'Clemson Girls' (Davisson-J., 2018)
ICNCP rules require that we withhold the description until checklist publication in 2019.
(this tells you that Judy HAS registered this.)

Jammin's Periwinkle Pearl (Singletary-B., 2018) [details withheld until publication in 2019]
This tells you that Ben HAS registered this.

Some hybridizers even register the cultivars in the year BEFORE they sell it, which is fine with me too! ( This is a 2018 introduction that will be coming this way too)
Phil and Louella registered this in 2017 but being they're way up north, they waited until 2018 to introduce it.
Pinewood Green Flash (Korth-P.-Korth-L., 2017)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(14 cm), season EM, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 25 buds, 5 branches, Dark pink petals with burgundy band around large green throat, green sepals with pink blush.. (Search for Green Pastures × Pinewood Lily Pad)

Sorry for the rant, but I've seen this happen ..... a lot.... and hate to see people be taken advantage of. The good news is, I was all set to buy a beautiful 2018 introduction the DAY it went on a website just a couple of weeks ago, and people were buying it like mad. Guess what? I checked first and there was already a cultivar in the DB by that same name. Lost the enthusiasm and saved the money.
[Last edited by floota - Feb 19, 2018 8:04 PM (+)]
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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
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blue23rose
Feb 19, 2018 10:02 PM CST
There are two more listed on their website with name changes. I understand the reason for the first three, but don't understand why FOR ALL TO SEE would not be valid.

CHASING DREAMS - is now registered as SHATTERED DREAMS.

FOR ALL TO SEE - is now registered as DIVINE HOPE.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: James
California (Zone 8b)
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JamesT
Feb 19, 2018 10:11 PM CST
floota said:BROKEN RECORD TIME:
The naming rules for registration of cultivars is dictated by what is called "the code," ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants.) That is the international governing body which oversees the naming of all registered cultivars. AHS registers the genus hemerocallis, but must follow the rules dictated by ICNCP. Naming and registration rules are spelled out CLEARLY on the database and rules are made clear (at least for those who take the time to read them !)

It is clearly stated that a new cultivar CANNOT be registered with the same or a very close name of an existing cultivar already in the database. EVERYONE is strongly encouraged to check a name you want to use against the data base before you submit. And anyone who has registered a daylily knows that you always must submit an alternate name in case the one you want is not approved. All names submitted for registration must be run past the name approval committee and be approved before the plant is officially registered. If the name submitted is found to be the same or even very similar or violates one of the other naming rules, the first name is rejected and the alternate name then goes through the same process. In a few cases, the alternate name is also rejected, in which case the hybridizer is asked to give another name. This is all SUPPOSED to be done before cultivars are sold and put on websites. Regrettably, it doesn't always happen that way.

It took me less than 30 seconds to check and see that both of these names mentioned in the first post are ALREADY IN THE AHS DATABASE for existing cultivars. That means there is ZERO chance these names would be approved for a new cultivar ( clearly stated in naming rules, by the way.)

So I do NOT believe this name change was caused by "AHS's new system." but rather that the hybridizer did not bother to check whether the names he submitted to AHS had already been used, and secondly, he did not wait until the names he submitted were approved before he listed and began selling them on the website.

ie: Cross Country is already in DB as :
Cross-country (Wild, 1987)
height 22 in.(56 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(14 cm), season La, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, Diamond dusted yellow self with small green throat.

and Breakthrough, yes that name was taken already too, back in 1966.
Breakthrough (Hughes, 1966)
height 17 in.(43 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Pastel rose with yellow throat . (Frances Fay × Duchess of Dallas)


Furthermore, WHY didn't the hybridizer WAIT to list registrations for sale ( when people who buy expensive new registrations usually ASSUME that what they are paying their hard earned bucks for is a legitimately registered name) until AFTER the completed registration forms are sent back? Years ago,registration took months and sometimes people would use names because they had in good faith mailed in a registration form and hadn't heard whether the name was approved in months. Nowadays it is a fast process, and I'm sorry, but IMHO, if you are going to sell plants for $100 or $150 or even more, then you need to be organized enough to get your registration forms in and allow that time for name approval to come through BEFORE you start selling,

At least we can give some credit to this hybridizer, they did contact the primary purchasers and attempt to set the record straight with corrected names, even if they INCORRECTLY tried to throw the blame onto AHS. Sorry, but I'm calling it as I see it. ( And who knows if any plants have already been put into the secondary market under the incorrect name?) That 's how , at some future point, a buyer might check the plant they just paid $75 for, and say, "WHAATT?? I bought a cultivar named Breakthrough that was supposed to be a 2017 introduction, and now it is listed in the database as a 1966 registration? "

Having listened to many furious people that had this happen to them, I ALWAYS CHECK the DB before buying new introductions, and would encourage anyone new to daylilies , if you are enticed enough to want to buy a brand new introduction, PLEASE for your own protection, always check to see if the hybridizer has registered that expensive plant you are buying!!
It is perfectly OK, by the way, when you check, if you see either of these types of wording on the database: ( randomly picked several that will be coming to me this spring) :

'Clemson Girls' (Davisson-J., 2018)
ICNCP rules require that we withhold the description until checklist publication in 2019.
(this tells you that Judy HAS registered this.)

Jammin's Periwinkle Pearl (Singletary-B., 2018) [details withheld until publication in 2019]
This tells you that Ben HAS registered this.

Some hybridizers even register the cultivars in the year BEFORE they sell it, which is fine with me too! ( This is a 2018 introduction that will be coming this way too)
Phil and Louella registered this in 2017 but being they're way up north, they waited until 2018 to introduce it.
Pinewood Green Flash (Korth-P.-Korth-L., 2017)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(14 cm), season EM, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 25 buds, 5 branches, Dark pink petals with burgundy band around large green throat, green sepals with pink blush.. (Search for Green Pastures × Pinewood Lily Pad)

Sorry for the rant, but I've seen this happen ..... a lot.... and hate to see people be taken advantage of. The good news is, I was all set to buy a beautiful 2018 introduction the DAY it went on a website just a couple of weeks ago, and people were buying it like mad. Guess what? I checked first and there was already a cultivar in the DB by that same name. Lost the enthusiasm and saved the money.



signet
Mar 23, 2019 10:01 PM CST
I realize this post is older but I have a question. If a name cannot be reused then why is adding a prefix name and then the reused name allowed. I know of a couple of hybridizer's that have been allowed to register daylilies that way . Doesn't that violate ICNCP rules?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 24, 2019 7:56 AM CST
I found this rule about using a prefix or suffix: From the AHS naming rules
"11. The names of cultivars that have won the AHS Stout Medal may not be used with any prefix or suffix
to create a new name subsequent to the cultivar having won the award."
Edited to add: There are other rules that might apply in different cases: So here are the rules.
http://daylilydatabase.org/Reg...
[Last edited by Seedfork - Mar 24, 2019 11:36 AM (+)]
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Name: Bob
Bellevue, NE. (Zone 5b)
Labelboy
Mar 24, 2019 8:06 AM CST
I have a question. On details on new registrations have to be withheld until 2019 publication? I'd like to know the cross, branching, budcount, etc. before I buy the daylily or does it mean before the hybridizer publishs it? And if the hybridizer is listing all this why isn't it available to the buyer?
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Mar 24, 2019 10:29 AM CST
Registration isn't considered official until AHS has published the name and description in print, and changes can be made up until that time.

For prefixes to previously used names, see also No. 23 in Larry's link to the AHS rules: "....Thus, simply placing a prefix garden name, or a possessive noun, in front of an existing cultivar name will no longer be accepted on its face value.".....
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Mar 24, 2019 11:43 AM CST
Labelboy said:I have a question. On details on new registrations have to be withheld until 2019 publication? I'd like to know the cross, branching, budcount, etc. before I buy the daylily or does it mean before the hybridizer publishs it? And if the hybridizer is listing all this why isn't it available to the buyer?


Although the AHS registration database may not list the details of new registrations until 2019 publication, hybridizers usually list the names and descriptive details on their own websites at any time. The hybridizer just needs to update their website with the appropriate details before making the new daylilies available for purchase.

Example 1:
AHS registration database:
Till the Morning Comes (Hansen-D., 2018) [details withheld until publication in 2019]

However on Ladybug Daylilies website:
https://ladybugdaylilies.com/p...
TILL THE MORNING COMES

$175.00

•Dan Hansen-2019
•Evergreen
•6RESK
•28″ scape
•5.5″ Flower
•Early
•4-way branching
•20 bud count
•Rebloom
•Sculpted Relief

During bloom season I can hardly wait "TILL THE MORNING COMES"! Clean Yellow with jagged carved red eye and red edge, is round and flat, center is triangular, yellow green! My first carved daylily in these colors! Plant grows well and maintains its size in the fall! BRIDGE OF SIGHS has grown well in the north (Z5)
•Fertile
•Pod Parent: AMERICAN HONEY x sdl#2SKE
•Pollen Parent: BRIDGE OF SIGHS

Example 2:
AHS registration database:
Blue Ocean Breeze (Trimmer, 2019) [details withheld until publication in 2020]

On the hybridizer's website:
2018 intros only - no 2019 intros listed yet.

Maurice
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Mar 24, 2019 1:48 PM CST
I thought the Trmmers had retired and going forward, some guy in CA , sorry, forgot his name, will be selling their introductions. I believe he is now or has been recently selling their most recent intros on the lily auction.
[Last edited by floota - Mar 24, 2019 1:49 PM (+)]
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Name: Arlene
Florida's east coast (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
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florange
Mar 24, 2019 6:58 PM CST
The Trimmers have retired. Dan told me he wanted to introduce 3 or 4 plants a year he thinks. He has a very limited number of plants--most were wholesaled. I'll be going over there in the new few days to give him some tomato plants I grew.

signet
Mar 24, 2019 8:32 PM CST
I wonder why the assumption that the rules have not been read was made.

I personally had previously already read the rules ........which is what precipitated my question. My understanding is/was that a name cannot be reused....... period ! ......So why are there so many with reused names altered only by a prefix ? There are many, many daylilies registered recently ( within the last 10 years) with reused names changed only by being proceeded by a prefix .

Just one example of so many ......Butterfly Kisses registered by Wild in 1976 and Small World Butterfly Kisses registered by M. Miller 2007 .

Am I misunderstanding the rules ?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 24, 2019 8:53 PM CST
"The names of cultivars that have won the AHS Stout Medal may not be used with any prefix or suffix
to create a new name subsequent to the cultivar having won the award."
This rule to me definitely implies that if other than Stout Medal winners prefixes and suffixes could be added to create new names.
Also the specific mentioning of garden names and possessives as prefixes that might not be allowed implies that other prefixes might be allowed. I saw no rule specifically saying no prefixes for any plants would not be allowed to create new names when added to an already existing name, but that they are all reviewed and that is preferred not to use an already existing name.

signet
Mar 24, 2019 9:57 PM CST
Quote from " the rules" ......Example 2: 'Mister John Doe' is identical to 'Mr John Doe', but neither is allowed if 'John Doe'' has already been registered.

This to me says, that if Butterfly Kisses is already registered , then Smallworld Butterfly Kisses would not be allowed. N'est pas ?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 25, 2019 7:07 AM CST
23. As noted in Number 24, acceptance of all names is subject to review by the Registration Committee.
The Committee wishes to clarify that there has been a proliferation of the use of specific garden related
prefixes, such as "Siloam," attached to existing cultivar names; repetition of the one word in a one word
cultivar name to create as new name , i.e. 'Cutie Cutie'; and, the use of possessives in front of existing
cultivar names (see also 10H above)

Such usage will be reviewed carefully and rejections may occur
where the use appears related only to the marketability of the name, or convenience, rather than the
relationship to a specific reason for the reuse of the base name. Thus, simply placing a prefix garden
name, or a possessive noun, in front of an existing cultivar name will no longer be accepted on its face
value. Rather, an analysis will be done to ascertain that there is a purpose other than using a name that has garnered favor. Use of previously registered names is strongly discouraged. Registrants are
encouraged to submit original names.
This to me says the names will be reviewed and in some cases the names with prefixes and suffixes will be approved and in other cases they will not and seems to state that there will be a tightening of the rules and a lot of the types of names that have been permitted in the past might not be approved in the future.

signet
Mar 25, 2019 10:02 AM CST
Yes Seedfork it is great to quote what they write are the rules , I read that bit of the rules as well . Still it seems it doesn't apply . I hope they (AHS) start to follow their own rules. But to date reusing names is still happening and does not at all seem to be ".strongly discouraged" I could list numerous new registrations that are like this . Hopefully the future will be different

Below, The original was registered in 1949 , the second ( with a prefix and same name in 2017 ) Makes me wonder if this rule only applies to certain registrants .

Purple Haze (Russell, 1949)
height 24 in.(61 cm), season M, Rebloom, Evergreen, Diploid, RD1: Red dark self.

Small World Purple Haze (Miller-M., 2017)
height 40 in.(101 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(13 cm), season M, Rebloom, Dormant, Diploid, Very Fragrant, 34 buds, 5 branches, Unusual Form Crispate-Cascade-Spatulate, Lavender purple with a lighter cream lavender edge and a darker plum halo, green throat.. (Small World I`m a Little Batty × Small World Red Finch)
Want me to list more ?

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