Daylilies forum→At Least Two of Larry Grace's 2017 Intros Renamed

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 25, 2019 11:47 AM CST
Maybe we should just ask what prefixes and suffixes are allowed? Obviously some are.
Name: Marcia
Rochester, ny, zone 6 (Zone 6b)
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DaylilyDazzled
Mar 25, 2019 12:26 PM CST
I think that if old names are not allowed to be used with added prefixes or suffixes, with 80000 registered we might run out of names.
What is someone registered Rainbow, or Pretty, then those words couldn't be used again?? Could definitely become a problem so I guess that is why they check each individually.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Mar 25, 2019 3:07 PM CST
Just in case anyone is interested I found a podcast that is an interview with Elizabeth Trotter who is the registrar for ADA:
Interestingly she does emphasize that their is no favoritism shown when approving names. I found it interesting, and discovered the book that covers the naming rules is about 200 pages.
https://www.stitcher.com/podca...

signet
Mar 25, 2019 4:18 PM CST
It is bad enough that much older cultivar names are being reused this way ( and should not be) however it is even worse when a daylily registered in 2011 has it's name reused

Butterfly King (Gossard, 2011)
height 29 in.(74 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Rebloom, Semi-Evergreen, Tetraploid, Fragrant, 18 buds, 3 branches, Cream yellow with a butterfly pattern, consisting of blues, oranges, whites, purples, violets, purples, and maroon colors, colors are also surround the petal edges, jagged outer maroon eye zone, sometimes small jagged teeth are seen. ((Etched Eyes × Forever in Time) × Tet. Crystal Blue Persuasion)

and then not even 5 years later again a cultivar from M. Miller as (really ? yes really! )

Small World Butterfly King (Miller-M., 2015)
height 34 in.(86 cm), bloom 5.25 in.(13 cm), season E, Rebloom, Dormant, Tetraploid, Fragrant, 34 buds, 6 branches, Lavender pink, blue patterned eye with a penciled wine eye over the blue, and a triple edge of wine, blue and gold, green throat. (Edge Ahead × Mildred Mitchell)

One of my least favourite use of a name for a daylily is any daylily named after someone. I have a few in my gardens but would prefer a name that is not of someone I don't know. I try not to order ones like that .

The name itself has no meaning for me except if it is of a famous person . Now please do not misunderstand me . I realize that naming a daylily after someone is usually done to honor a person who has passed or a family member someone loves. I get that . However , that being said the name usually means something only to the person who registered that plant or a very small circle of people who may have known or do know the person . I respect that they are honoring someone they love and most pertinent of all it is allowed according to the rules of the AHS and although not a favorite choice of a name for a plant, I understand the movtivation. And, At the very least it is an ORIGINAL name and not used because someone can't think of a new name for their new cultivar.

The allowing of reuse of names also creates confusion especially if someone thinks they are buying a certain daylily and end up with another . This has happened personally to me several times over the last 10 years. Then everyone goes "oops" but my money meant for a certain daylily is now invested in one I didn't want in the first place.
Name: Susie
Western NY (Zone 4a)
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lovegrillin
Mar 25, 2019 5:23 PM CST
This is certainly an interesting topic. So, dropping a 'prefix' works the same? For example, 'Siloam David Kirchhoff' P. Henry 1986 and 'David Kirchhoff' by Salter 1992. Shrug!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Mar 25, 2019 5:39 PM CST
I would think that because the example is a person's name: David Kirchhoff it would be allowed even if 'Siloam David Kirchhoff' came first.

signet
Mar 25, 2019 5:47 PM CST
Lovegrillin' , I guess so ! just more confusion
[Last edited by signet - Mar 25, 2019 5:48 PM (+)]
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Name: Donald
Eastland county, Texas (Zone 8a)
Region: Texas Enjoys or suffers hot summers Raises cows Plant Identifier
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needrain
Mar 25, 2019 8:00 PM CST
It doesn't bother me so much.

The key is that everyone uses the 'whole' registered name and not just part of it. Doing that should keep 'Wild and Wonderful' separate from 'Buddy's Wild and Wonderful'. I grow both.

Really, though, to me when a plant is registered under a name, that name is the equivalent of a unique serial number for a specific cultivar. Serial numbers are often very similar, using identical codes for make, model etc that are shared among many others. What makes the difference is the addition of something that distinguishes it from all the others. Adding 'Buddy' in front of the name does that. If it were the earlier of the intros, dropping it would be the same. That does require that the entire name be used because it's part of the registered name. Selling 'Buddy's Wild and Wonderful' without using the first word would be misleading and wrong.

Truthfully, that scenario is probably better than some plants that get widely distributed under the wrong name. People can grow those for years without realizing it. Assigning a name to an unknown without being absolutely certain (which is very difficult) leads to a lot of that. Careless mix ups at local sales do that as well. I think either of those are more likely to cause a wrong name to be used and both are rather common across the plant world. I have done it with an iris which I'd had for some time and purchased under the wrong name. It was a similar bloom that I had for a long time before I discovered it was parading under the name of another cultivar.
Donald
[Last edited by needrain - Mar 26, 2019 6:59 AM (+)]
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signet
Mar 26, 2019 3:53 PM CST
Donald , I agree with your last paragraph, this wrong daylily being sold under a certain name has been a big problem over the years . I can think of two off the top of my head. One is Chloe and Miss Jessie , quite often Miss Jessie is sold as Chloe The other one that comes up all the time is Magic Dawn . I have ordered this plant several times from different sellers, each time hoping to get the right plant . Nope, I have gotten the wrong plant every time . Even if you tell the sellers that it is the wrong plant that they are advertising and it is not Magic Dawn it is Howdy , it doesn' t seem to matter .The description for the plant , copied exactly from the AHS database is used by the seller but the image on the seller's website looks nothing like the description ...still doesn't seem to matter . Then each time the plant gets sold one more person is growing the wrong plant and if they decide to sell some it just perpetuates the situation . I can't understand why people continue to do this . Call me crazy I like to have the plant I ordered .

Edit to add: I also know of one daylily seller in England who is selling the daylily
Golliwog as Golly. When I wrote to inquire about it and suggest that the real name was Golliwog I was told they have changed the name and sold it by their abbreviated name as some buyers in England were offended by the name . Why would someone do this ? If that is indeed the case would you not just take it off your selling list ? And people wonder why daylilies are misnamed or lost .
[Last edited by signet - Mar 26, 2019 5:30 PM (+)]
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Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Apr 20, 2019 11:09 PM CST
I have seen daylilies that are registered by a name, and then 'trademarked' and sold under an entirely different name altogether. And also anyone can hybridize a daylily, and name it and sell it w/o registering it at all. Often times plants get passed along w wrong names by mistake, wrong plant tag, or spelling error. Or people don't know the name of the plant so they make something up to have something to use in reference to it. Many people buy sell or trade daylilies they purchase and may not even realize that daylilies ARE registered or that AHS even exists. I dind't know for several years after I had started growing them. Also the AHS database is SUPER picky and if you mis-spell anything or if your name is all one word instead of 2 ect, it doesn't pick it up so you don't know it exists. The search feature doesn't work well.
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
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floota
Apr 21, 2019 10:13 AM CST
I'm NO registration expert by a long shot, but do have some experience working with the registrar and registration chair extensively during my tenure with AHS. I'm fairly sure the rule 24 must have been enacted since my term as President ended, so since 2015. I'm glad to see this rule, as some hybridizers (who have been named here in previous post) have verbally expressed to me that as long as they used "their" prefix, any previously used name was just fine. That was a prevailing attitude, and has needed changing because of the confusion resulting. So this rule will hopefully be enacted going forward, but we shouldn't expect it to apply retroactively.

Also, a tip for those using the AHS DB. The previous registrar taught me this years ago. DONT type in the full name, since it is so case and punctuation sensitive. Type in the first few letters or a couple words. A few may pop up, but you'll usually find what you are looking for more quickly. For example, I just looked for Cabana Anna and typed in the first 4 letters only. Several names popped up, but I quickly scrolled down and hit the one I wanted.
[Last edited by floota - Apr 21, 2019 10:15 AM (+)]
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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Apr 21, 2019 10:57 AM CST
I also never type in the full name when searching the AHS db. And I use the option "anywhere in cultivar name" . Rarely run into a problem.

Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Mar 24, 2020 10:01 PM CST
signet said:
Edit to add: I also know of one daylily seller in England who is selling the daylily
Golliwog as Golly. When I wrote to inquire about it and suggest that the real name was Golliwog I was told they have changed the name and sold it by their abbreviated name as some buyers in England were offended by the name. Why would someone do this? If that is indeed the case would you not just take it off your selling list? And people wonder why daylilies are misnamed or lost.


This string is fascinating to me! All of it, from seemingly careless attempts to use an established name, to prefixes ranging from Mr. to Small World or Buddy's, to a name changed willy-nilly by a seller because someone might be offended.

I've got to admit, I thought "Now, why would someone use that word to name a daylily?" the first time I saw Golliwog. It's not just in England where that particular word is offensive. I remember thinking about all of the other ethnic and racial slurs that people have used for millenia...and how inappropriate I think all of them are for a plant name. Emphasis on the "I" there...this is an opinion. It has to do with the selection of the names, NOT with whether they meet naming convention rules.

Actually, I had similar thoughts about a cultivar name that included the seemingly disrespectful use of a past president's name. That one also rubbed me the wrong way, but maybe I just didn't understand the thoughts behind using it. However, I don't sell daylilies, so I don't need to worry about any ethical or personal conflicts. I simply won't buy a daylily with a name that offends me...easy-peasy.

This post invokes my personal opinions, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Also, if you DON'T agree, kindly refrain from putting me on blast here. Simply nod knowingly to yourself, silently attribute it to me being a newbie, and move on.

But I digress. Back to my original point: I enjoyed reading this string! While some of the naming conventions are...confusing, I appreciate all the information and the time folks took to enter it and try to educate us daylily lovers. Thanks for doing that, everyone!
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Mar 24, 2020 10:33 PM CST
I will call it whatever it was 'supposed' to be, and if it offends anyone, they don't need to buy it themselves. I have ran across names before which I thought were bad taste and passed them up. It will always be Golliwog to me.
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Name: Mike
Hazel Crest, IL (Zone 5b)
"Have no patience for bare ground"
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Hazelcrestmikeb
Mar 25, 2020 10:01 AM CST
I find that the AHS search engine is more user friendlier than the one here also. There are so many weird unusual names out there. I just glance at them and keep moving. We can't please all the folks all the time. Let your wallet speak. I'm with Frillylily. Call the plant by its registered name. Changing it to something more neutral causes more confusion in the long run. Uncle Ken, relax nodding I might not agree with everyone's opinion, but I respect them. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with mine either. I agree with Ken on the disrespect that some of the names portray.
robinseeds.com
"Life as short as it is, is amazing, isn't it. MichaelBurton
"Be your best you". "Mikedon" on the LA.
Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Mar 25, 2020 4:25 PM CST
We're on the same page, Mike! I wouldn't call something by a name other than the one registered, either.

I do feel weird, particularly when raving about my mysterious, literally and figuratively prolific, yet unregistered 'Maya Purple'. It was purchased at Lowe's in the very late 90s/early 00s. It just seems so weird that a grower for a chain that big would market an unregistered cultivar.

Now, there IS an older cultivar named 'Maya'. The AHS color description, though, just says "medium self." It doesn't say medium WHAT COLOR self lol. It looks like the hybridizer may have submitted a less-than-stellar description way back in 1969.

I guess it's possible I misread the tag way back when, and that it said 'Maya' and noted that it was purple. I noted the name in my notes, though, and included it in multiple photo captions on Facebook. This one will forever remain a mystery!

At any rate, thanks for the coolness of this post...and for that pic of the very beautiful 'Golliwog', Frillylily!
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Mar 25, 2020 6:43 PM CST
MrKGDickie said:We're on the same page, Mike! I wouldn't call something by a name other than the one registered, either.

I do feel weird, particularly when raving about my mysterious, literally and figuratively prolific, yet unregistered 'Maya Purple'. It was purchased at Lowe's in the very late 90s/early 00s. It just seems so weird that a grower for a chain that big would market an unregistered cultivar.

Now, there IS an older cultivar named 'Maya'. The AHS color description, though, just says "medium self." It doesn't say medium WHAT COLOR self lol. It looks like the hybridizer may have submitted a less-than-stellar description way back in 1969.

I guess it's possible I misread the tag way back when, and that it said 'Maya' and noted that it was purple. I noted the name in my notes, though, and included it in multiple photo captions on Facebook. This one will forever remain a mystery!

At any rate, thanks for the coolness of this post...and for that pic of the very beautiful 'Golliwog', Frillylily!


it may be a registered cultivar that they renamed to 'whatever' and sold. They do that sometimes. Then when you look up the name, you discover it doesn't exist.
Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Mar 25, 2020 8:01 PM CST
Frillylily said:

it may be a registered cultivar that they renamed to 'whatever' and sold. They do that sometimes. Then when you look up the name, you discover it doesn't exist.


I wonder why anyone would take something with a registered name, give it a made-up name, and sell it. Seems counterintuitive and counterproductive.

My "Maya Purple" resembles 'Purple Waters' in many respects. I need to measure/compare scape height and flower size and colors. I've never noticed rebloom before, but perhaps it's a concurrent rebloom.
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
[Last edited by MrKGDickie - Mar 26, 2020 6:18 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
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sooby
Mar 26, 2020 5:01 AM CST
MrKGDickie said:

I wonder why anyone would take something with a registered name, give it a made-up name, and sell it.
Seems counterintuitive and counterproductive.

My "Maya Purple" resembles 'Purple Waters' in many respects.


Quite often there is some confusion between a trade name and a cultivar name, perhaps because many sellers and buyers don't understand or follow the international nomenclature recommendations. You are exactly right putting "Maya Purple" in double quotes since it appears it is not a valid (registered or patented) cultivar name. A valid cultivar should have single quotes, such as you gave for the registered 'Purple Waters'. A trade designation is not considered a name under the code of nomenclature, should be written in different type, and have no quotes. Ideally it should be followed by the valid cultivar name in brackets, to give an example Hemerocallis GOLDEN ZEBRA ('Malja'), or Hydrangea ENDLESS SUMMER ('Bailmer') but that is often not done and a trade name is wrongly written alone and with single quotes.

[Last edited by sooby - Mar 26, 2020 5:04 AM (+)]
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Name: Mike
Hazel Crest, IL (Zone 5b)
"Have no patience for bare ground"
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Hazelcrestmikeb
Mar 26, 2020 9:20 AM CST
Sue, since most of us are learning as we go. "Thanks to you" I tip my hat to you.
We now know what to do I tip my hat to you.
robinseeds.com
"Life as short as it is, is amazing, isn't it. MichaelBurton
"Be your best you". "Mikedon" on the LA.

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