Hello ATP...I came over from DG, heard Dave on The Survival Podcast ( http://goo.gl/4ZuJq ) recently.

Anyway...

I am interested in permaculture versions of shrubs and vines for a shaded north exposure for 9b. Any suggestions?

Thanks!
C

Hi Chris! I do remember you, of course. Glad you discovered the Survival podcast Dave participated in. It was very informative. Glad you've come to visit us.

Now, about the permaculture versions of shrubs and vines. I don't know about this method and I'm hoping someone will stop by with some useful information. I can suggest, too, that you have a look around at the other forums for some help. I'll see what I can find, too.

Glad you're here. There is lots of good information with so many of the folks from DG now sharing here.

Susie

Hi Chris! to ATP!!

Here is a link to what's going on with the Plant Database (upper left tab on your homepage.)

The thread "Introducing our Plant Database!" in Plant Database forum

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "permaculture version" of a plant, but these folks can surely answer your question. http://www.phoenixpermaculture... Hope this helps.

milkmood, what kinds of shrubs are you looking for? Are you wanting production of edible fruits, or just ornamentals? Do you want to provide food for wildlife?

What's the soil like in that area?

Edible, cannable, useful stuff. I'm thinking along the lines of rosemary, which makes great low hedges in our climate. But also fruit, nuts, berries, vines like vanilla, etc. I'm also considering some prickly pear cactus, but I'd like to know if there are varieties that produce more fruit than others.

Soil is useless for the most part...very heavy and hard. A caliche layer often runs anywhere from 6" to 36" deep. Always has to be amended except for native plants.

Heat in the 9b summers is a major factor. Daily highs average 107, and can reach 118 in an average summer.

I do have friends here who have figs, pomegranate, apricots, passionfruit, and some other non-citrus trees. They've offered me cuttings of those, which I intend to take them up on. But I'd also like hedges and vines.

I'm headed over to check out the Phoenix Permaculture site that TF recommended. And by "permaculture version", I just meant productive rather than merely decorative. It's the software guy in me coming through.

Found this amazing resource: http://cals.arizona.edu/marico...

Keep in mind, this is for Zone 9b.

blackberries, I got wild ones that tear up my hand now I'm learning to wear gloves....Think they would love growing in a Permaculture...
Thanks again

Blackberries are considered weeds in Oregon/Washington where I'm from. I believe they were introduced and now grow everywhere very vigorously. I remember as a kid in Canby, OR having a large blackberry bramble in our yard, and I had a fort inside of it. Even the now-wild ones up there produce excellent berries.

Do they grow wild in GA ?

Very cool you've taken on Permaculture forum, Chris!

I'm from Northern California and berries of all kinds grow like crazy and wild. Along many roadsides, in fields, even my own yard in Los Altos. We were cautioned to not eat the berries growing along busy roads because of the fumes, toxins, dirt. They were so abundant elsewhere it was easy to follow those instructions.

Durn, you were brave having a fort inside a Bramble bush. I've got all kinds of dead trees around here Guess I need to start hauling em in and start planting, huh????
Think I'll use the smaller ones...

Charleen, yeah, I was like, 5-6. I didn't have a clue. Even had a campfire in there with my friends, and a subsequent lickin' with the wooden spoon.

Save those dead trees and read Dave's article on hugelkultur now linked in a sticky at the top of this forum.

milkmood said:Blackberries are considered weeds in Oregon/Washington where I'm from. I believe they were introduced and now grow everywhere very vigorously. I remember as a kid in Canby, OR having a large blackberry bramble in our yard, and I had a fort inside of it. Even the now-wild ones up there produce excellent berries.

Do they grow wild in GA ?

USDA shows 237 species of Rubus ( blackberries ) and I only counted 11 that were listed as introduce, the rest are native.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/pr...

I understand considering edibles for the permaculture landscape but I also like to include herbals and medicinals.

I'm not as familiar with what will grow in your zone but here, I will be planting Vitex trees which will serve to feed the birds as well as be used for medicinal applications.

Another small native tree that provides light shade and can be used medicinally is the Prickly Ash Hercules Club aka toothache tree. The bark can be peeled and applied for its' numbing effect orally.

milkmood said:..... vines like vanilla, etc.

Chris, vanilla vines are tropical orchids, They can't take cold temperatures.Unless you keep them in a heated glasshouse they wouldn't survive. Pollination is also a difficult issue.

Gourds would probably work.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/o...

The national plant germplasm system can offer cuttings of fruit trees that might be adapted to a dry climate with caliche soils. I remember seeing some Egyptian figs in this list once. You do have to have some research or educational motive to be qualified to obtain the cuttings. Also, California fruit growers is another resource. Most fruiting plants like full sun though --even in Arizona.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/o...

The permaculture designs that normally include fruiting plants are hedgerows or food forests.

Vanilla would grow in the shade where I am in Phoenix. Would need to be covered 3-5 nights a year for the cold, but otherwise, it would be a bee magnet at a minimum.

Hazel...interesting link, but they say in the text :

"Due to the intensive effort and resources required to ensure availability of germplasm for this purpose, we are unable to distribute it for home gardening or other purposes that can utilize readily available commercial cultivars."

Wonder if we could claim permaculture as "research" as it specifies in the Order Request

I'm going to try it and see what happens.