Sempervivum forum: Sempervivum ciliosum fr/ Ali Botusch

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Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Apr 23, 2018 8:56 PM CST
This is a very special form of ciliosum, always wanted it and Mountain Crest has it, so now I have it.

In the history of semps, lots of the species were collected from this locale or that locale, and are named as "fr/" which indicates "from". From 'Ali Botusch' indicates a place in Bulgaria, although it's spelled 'Ali Botush', perhaps "Botusch' is an alternate place name.

A look at Lynn's plant says it all, take a look, such big tight ciliated buttons, exquisite:
Hen and Chicks (Sempervivum ciliosum from Ali Botusch)

The Mountain Crest plant, in a teeny-tini pot, had two large rosettes that stretched the 2" pot into a trapezoid shape, I freed them today by repotting each rosette into larger pots, they're happy now.

Left photo: ciliosum fr/ Ali Botusch, separated into two pots from the tiny 2" pot, side view.
Right photo: close-up view, 04-23-2018
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/a196f6 Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/699654

I see faces in my garden workshop. Keep in mind in these photos the comparative size of a pot, and the MCG mini 2" pot. Hard to believe both rosettes fit into a single 2" pot.
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/125351 Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/afd616

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Apr 23, 2018 9:10 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1691350 (1)
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Apr 23, 2018 9:05 PM CST
Forget to mention, but there was another "from" version of Sempervivum ciliosum in the early days, it was ciliosum fr/ Mali Hat (Bulgaria). This one seems to have dropped out altogether, it was listed previously as Sempervivum ciliosum var. galicicum 'Mali Hat'.
Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Apr 23, 2018 9:42 PM CST

Moderator

Interesting history Mark.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Apr 23, 2018 10:06 PM CST
Mark I bet 'Botusch' spelling is coming from German, and then to us here in USA
Plants are looking good! I tip my hat to you. The ciliosum types don't like me - I was thinking of retrying this one, but looked at my regular one, it is just 2 small chicks and very sad looking...just too wet here in Seattle and if I make the soil very fast draining, they dry up in our summer droughts, and I can't be watering every day Whistling

Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Apr 23, 2018 10:13 PM CST
gg5 said:Mark I bet 'Botusch' spelling is coming from German, and then to us here in USA
Plants are looking good! I tip my hat to you. The ciliosum types don't like me - I was thinking of retrying this one, but looked at my regular one, it is just 2 small chicks and very sad looking...just too wet here in Seattle and if I make the soil very fast draining, they dry up in our summer droughts, and I can't be watering every day Whistling


Greg, I wondered about an alternative language version of a place name. Sorry to hear the ciliosum types are difficult in the Seattle area, I had the advantage of gardening both in Seattle area and much longer in New England, the differences can be very challenging indeed, and surprising. This species does very well here in New England.

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Apr 23, 2018 10:14 PM (+)]
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Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
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gg5
Apr 23, 2018 10:25 PM CST
Yes that doesn't surprise me, that it does better there! I tip my hat to you.

Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
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tcstoehr
Apr 24, 2018 10:23 AM CST
I don't think mine enjoys the PNW climate either. It was a tiny guy when I got it and has grown a bit since I moved it from a poor location. I think it hates winter here, me too. I am going to cover it with a cloche this winter and see how it goes.

Lynn has a good picture in the DB of one of these, I wonder if she managed to grow it up nice and healthy.

I think Dirt posted a really nice picture of one of these in the past. I think it prefers that sort of climate.

Thumb of 2018-04-24/tcstoehr/3190c2

Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Apr 24, 2018 12:52 PM CST
Tim & Greg, interesting (and surprising) to hear about the S. ciliosum not doing well in your climate, do any of the ciliosum inspired hybrids grow okay for you guys?

I've shown this planter a number of times before, but just went out and snapped some photos today. The semps in this planter still have their winter look, because we've only been frost free for 3 days now, and today it's 76F, the ciliosum ssp. ciliosum (borisii) only recently started to swell a bit. The semps in this planter have reached a happy state of stasis, they have reached their boundaries and do not attempt expanding up and over the planter edge. Nouveau Pastel is happy to keep within confines too. I need to do a de-mossing and add fresh stone chip mulch added. There's a gap between one of the heuff Torrid Zone from one rosette flowering/dying last year.
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/8a7e02 Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/ebc3e3

Close-up, April 24 2018.
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/53f4a3

Still not entirely sure what year my old planted started failing apart, and the heuff + 2 semp varieties were moved to this dish shaped planter. The last photo I have of them in the old planter was 2003, so my guess is this planter was done up around 2005. Found a photo of a rare flowering in 2001, very pretty flowers on this species, has never flowered again!

Left: flowering in 2001, short stalk and bright yellow, heuff Torrid Zone in lower right.
Right: same combination ciliosum & Torrid Zone in my old planter in 2003, I liked them together so kept the combo in the replacement planter.
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/969697 Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/e676f8

I just assumed this was one tough cookie, there it sits in a shallow dish container in full sun, for about 12 years, frying in summer heat and humidity, covered with ice and snow in winter, unfazed by the alternating freeze/thaw (this year that cycle lasted for an extra month)

I have declared that TODAY to be spring in northern Massachusetts just a stone's throw from New Hampshire, I can tell because flowers are actually popping open.

Left: Corydalis solida, good red form
Right: Sanguinaria canadensis - light pink form, 4 year old from seed.
Thumb of 2018-04-24/AntMan01/80e8a5

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
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gg5
Apr 24, 2018 1:56 PM CST
Looks great Mark yes there's no way they'd look like that here! Thumbs down

Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Apr 24, 2018 2:05 PM CST

Moderator

Tim it did really well for me by keeping it on higher ground. It loved our hot drought summers. I lost it all when I moved it to another bed. Bad move. Crying
Loved it, think I will give it a try again. I really like it's growing habit.
Name: Greg Colucci
Seattle WA (Zone 8b)
Sempervivums Sedums Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 1
Garden Art Birds Dog Lover Cat Lover Region: Pacific Northwest Hummingbirder
Image
gg5
Apr 24, 2018 3:08 PM CST
Lynn I may try it again too and keep it in the sun and in a fast draining soil! I tip my hat to you.

Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
May 12, 2018 9:51 PM CST
Comparing rosette size on ciliosum var. borisii (now ciliosum ssp. ciliosum) in my planter & ciliosum from Ali Botusch (available from Mountain Crest), wow, the Ali Botusch form is at least triple rosette size. So nice to add it to my collection.

Thumb of 2018-05-13/AntMan01/296dcb

Then I wonder about another ciliosum form that was readily available back in the 1970s & 80s, it was called Sempervivum ciliosum from Mali Hat (I believe a form from Bulgaria). Here's a scan of a Kodak photo of my plant taken in 1980 ( I was 26 at the time). On the right is a photo of the back of the photo (no computers back then) indicating the date, was from one of the main Semp specialty dealers at the time.
Thumb of 2018-05-13/AntMan01/7d5e08 Thumb of 2018-05-13/AntMan01/7a1add

It seems that this selection has disappeared from current semp specialty commerce in the USA. Today it would be listed as S. ciliosum ssp. galicicum from Mali Hat, but it's not listed anywhere, not in the Semp database.
Here are some links to this extraordinary Sempervivum, wondering if it's available in the USA.

Sempervivum ciliosum (ex Mali Hat, Bulgarien)
https://shop.sarastro-stauden....
http://www.fernwood-nursery.co...
...examples
http://www.ideasforgardens.net...

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
[Last edited by AntMan01 - May 12, 2018 9:58 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1707363 (12)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
May 13, 2018 9:49 AM CST

Moderator

Here you go Mark.
http://sempervivum-liste.de/Se...

I also have a photos from Fernwood for 2003 and 2004 for S. ciliosum ssp. galicicum. I will download them when I get back home this afternoon.
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
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AntMan01
Jun 24, 2018 5:41 PM CST
valleylynn said:Here you go Mark.
http://sempervivum-liste.de/Se...

I also have a photos from Fernwood for 2003 and 2004 for S. ciliosum ssp. galicicum. I will download them when I get back home this afternoon.


Hi Lynn, did you get a chance to do this? Were you going to add ssp. galacicum, maybe I misunderstood.

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Image
AntMan01
Jun 24, 2018 5:47 PM CST
Sempervivum ciliosum fr/ Ali Botusch is growing bigger, and one of them is just starting to show some red highlights on the back of the leaves. The rosettes are as firm as a rock.
Thumb of 2018-06-24/AntMan01/9778e9

A closer look at the larger rosette on the left, from directly above, displays the classic Fibonacci patterns, if you look closely at the image, you should be able to see the spinning propeller-like pattern of the tightly held leaves. Truly a beautiful semp, still waiting for chicks, none yet.
Thumb of 2018-06-24/AntMan01/ddd2d7

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
[Last edited by AntMan01 - Jun 26, 2018 8:19 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #1746261 (15)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
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valleylynn
Jun 24, 2018 7:23 PM CST

Moderator

Forgive me Mark, I forgot to do that. Here it is now. Smiling
Hen and chicks (Sempervivum ssp. ciliosum (galicicum))

Great photo you posted.
Name: Mark McDonough
Massachusetts (Zone 5a)
Region: Massachusetts Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Procrastinator Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Photography Foliage Fan
Birds Seed Starter Hybridizer Sempervivums
Image
AntMan01
Jun 24, 2018 7:28 PM CST
valleylynn said:Forgive me Mark, I forgot to do that. Here it is now. Smiling
Hen and chicks (Sempervivum ssp. ciliosum (galicicum))

Great photo you posted.


Thank you Lynn. On the photo, I cropped it to be a mesmerizing square to best embody the Fabonacci pattern Drooling Without any chicks so far, hoping it doesn't decide to flower, if it does, we know we can get it from MCG.

Avatar: Jovibarba x nixonii 'Jowan'
I use #2 chicken grit to feed my hens & chicks :-)
Name: Lynn
Dallas, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Image
valleylynn
Jun 24, 2018 8:43 PM CST

Moderator

Hope it offsets for you Mark. I do love the form and texture of the ciliosum.
Romania, Mures (Zone 6a)
Sedums Sempervivums Region: Europe
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PaleoTemp
Jun 25, 2018 2:14 AM CST
Very nice ciliosum specimens, AntMan01 !
The substrate you use is very gritty and has very little organic material?
Name: Tim Stoehr
Canby, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Butterflies Sempervivums Region: Pacific Northwest Vegetable Grower Cactus and Succulents Sedums
Bee Lover Region: Oregon Dragonflies Keeper of Poultry Cat Lover Composter
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tcstoehr
Jun 25, 2018 10:31 AM CST
tcstoehr said:I don't think mine enjoys the PNW climate either. It was a tiny guy when I got it and has grown a bit since I moved it from a poor location. I think it hates winter here, me too. I am going to cover it with a cloche this winter and see how it goes.

Lynn has a good picture in the DB of one of these, I wonder if she managed to grow it up nice and healthy.

I think Dirt posted a really nice picture of one of these in the past. I think it prefers that sort of climate.

Thumb of 2018-04-24/tcstoehr/3190c2



My 'Ali Botusch' seems to be doing better these days. Heck, I've had it for three years and it's way bigger than when I got it. That's progress... isn't it?
Thumb of 2018-06-25/tcstoehr/d5f808

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