Cactus and Succulents forum: Cactus taxonomy/classification/phylogeny- a more serious topic

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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
May 1, 2018 11:43 AM CST
So, ive been "using", or rather, im most familiar with, the 2001 cactus classification system. Got curious, and looked at the new one(2010), and ive noticed some..... oddities. Apparantly, they clumped cacti from the likes of carnegiea and pachycereus together with hylocereus and epiphyllum.... , theyve divided notocacteae, leaving copiapoa and frailea without a tribe..... from what ive seen its a mess. Angry Sighing! Confused Sad Thumbs down
Anyone with more up to date data? Because i cant find a logical explanation for this classification, no matter what the DNA results show- if that is the reasoning behind it.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
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Jai_Ganesha
May 2, 2018 11:12 AM CST
Well...there's no clear answer.

I was at a plant show once where some guy suggested that ALL desert cacti be grouped under one genus and then slowly "sussed out" into others if necessary. I remember thinking that was a dumb idea but over the years I've realized it might not be because the mess we're in now is truly incomprehensible.
Keep going!
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Cactus and Succulents Orchids Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Bulbs Foliage Fan
Purslane Bromeliad Container Gardener Houseplants Sedums Sempervivums
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skopjecollection
May 2, 2018 11:24 AM CST
Genetic similarity should be definitely be a factor. That being said, while peniocereus and selenecereus look awfully cute together....... carnegiea and epiphyllum do not.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
Container Gardener Region: West Virginia Multi-Region Gardener Garden Photography Amaryllis Zinnias
Gardens in Buckets Annuals Houseplants Plant and/or Seed Trader Birds Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Jai_Ganesha
May 2, 2018 11:34 AM CST
Ephiphytic cacti were excluded from that comment on purpose I think.

Determining genetic similarity can be more difficult than people realize. I have experience with animals, where it is much more straightforward, but a portion of that is still guesswork.
Keep going!
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Cactus and Succulents Orchids Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Bulbs Foliage Fan
Purslane Bromeliad Container Gardener Houseplants Sedums Sempervivums
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skopjecollection
May 2, 2018 12:32 PM CST
Its not that epiphytic cacti are that dissimilar, but flowers and stem are very different with the current classification.(mostly at this point its critique for the 2010 system). Eg, selenicereus is more similar to harrisia than arthocereus or peniocereus, hylocereus to stetsonia(in bloom terms), and epiphylum to cereus. Copiapoa and frailea are not toghether with parodia, even though their flower are more similar than between reburia members belonging to 2 different sub genera.
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
Container Gardener Region: West Virginia Multi-Region Gardener Garden Photography Amaryllis Zinnias
Gardens in Buckets Annuals Houseplants Plant and/or Seed Trader Birds Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Jai_Ganesha
May 2, 2018 12:47 PM CST
More similar by what objective standards? I think that gets glossed over, because there are a lot of variables.
Keep going!
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Cactus and Succulents Orchids Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Bulbs Foliage Fan
Purslane Bromeliad Container Gardener Houseplants Sedums Sempervivums
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skopjecollection
May 2, 2018 1:02 PM CST
Not all cacti belong together. EG, trihocereuae member hybridize a lot- haegocereus x espotoa, cleistocactus x matucana, espotoa, trihchocereus, tricho x echinopsis, lobivia and those two and oreocereus, some of those with acanthocalyium. maybe even rauhocereus belongs in there. But, rebutia , harrisia, gymnocalycium do not form hybrids with any of those.
Other example include mammilaria, coryphantha, escobaria(with the weird bloom and areole parts), others like barrels , astrophytum and leuchtnenbergia, or pachycereae members like bergerocactus and those other hybrids....

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