Plant ID forum: Plant Information

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Cape Town
JPSA
May 17, 2018 8:50 AM CST
Good Day

I am attaching an image of a plant that I have.

It has taken about five months for it to flower. I grew it from a cutting.

The flower has quite a pungent odor.

Please assist

Kindest Regards
JP
Thumb of 2018-05-17/visitor/665640
Thumb of 2018-05-17/visitor/be29d0

Name: Lin
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
May 17, 2018 8:54 AM CST
It appears to be a variety of Ceropegia (commonly called Starfish Plant). We have a list of different varieties here in our database with photos for comparison: https://garden.org/plants/sear...
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Charlie
Aurora, Ontario (Zone 5b)
Maintenance of Perennial Beds.
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SunnyBorders
May 17, 2018 2:17 PM CST
Am thinking that's a Stapelia (carrion flower). Odour: most Stapelia are fly-pollinated.
I'd say that the flower colour of our ones was brown.
Kind of fits with where houseflies (at least) lay eggs.

Had them at various times in a greenhouse and in the house.
The odour was just a curiosity and never bothered us.
Name: Lin
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
May 17, 2018 2:37 PM CST
Stapelia have now been moved (by scientists) to the genus Ceropegia. One of the common names for many of them is "Carrion Flower" due to their malodorous scent. Here are a few photos from our database for comparison:





~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Charlie
Aurora, Ontario (Zone 5b)
Maintenance of Perennial Beds.
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SunnyBorders
May 17, 2018 3:31 PM CST
The taxonomic reorganization mentioned by Lin above is not reflected in Wikipedia (yet?).

If you're going to correct the nomenclatural usage of others, I believe you should provide more substantiation than "moved (by scientists)". I'm quite sure that there are frequently disagreements between botanists and between taxonomists as to what a currently appropriate classification (and hence nomenclature) for a group of plants should be.

Presumably, the focus of the academic research and the methodology used both affect the outcome of such research. I don't believe that taxonomy (classification) is simply a matter of right and wrong. There are, however, explicit rules for nomenclature (naming), whether they are followed or not. And even here, there may be grounds for disagreement.

If you're going to impose a particular classification, personally, I would rather you cite the actual source which you are using.





Name: Lin
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
May 17, 2018 5:24 PM CST
@SunnyBorders Charlie, I sure didn't mean to come across as though I was "correcting" your nomenclature usage and I do truly apologize if I came across that way.

I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to botany but the National Gardening Association uses the Catalogue of Life for classification purposes. The Catalogue of Life and the database here list Ceropegia as the Genus and Stapelia as a synonym; many plants in the Ceropegia genus used to be listed in our database as Stapelia but that name was changed when the Catalogue of Life updated. If botanists and plant scientists decide to change the genera back to Stapelia, our administrators will make the changes accordingly to our database here at garden.org.

I personally do not feel that Wikipedia (A "Free Encyclopedia that Anyone can Change") is a reliable source of information. Information at Wikipedia can be edited by anybody and everybody and I don't know if there is any administrator/overseer of that input.

Maybe one of our Plant Database administrators @zuzu, @Calif_Sue, @Kentpfeiffer, @eclayne, @Australis can better clarify the nomenclature and how our database works.

Again ... I apologize if I sounded like I was correcting you because that certainly was not my intention.
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
May 17, 2018 5:39 PM CST

Moderator

I have nothing to add to Lin's excellent explanation except these CoL listings for the former Stapelia genus. Please note that the genus no longer exists, and all of its former species are now species of the Ceropegia genus.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org...
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
May 17, 2018 5:56 PM CST
A new way to become extinct?
Porkpal
Name: Charlie
Aurora, Ontario (Zone 5b)
Maintenance of Perennial Beds.
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SunnyBorders
May 17, 2018 7:24 PM CST
Lin, thanks, but apologies not needed. I'd even feel that one is not relevant to the issue at hand.

I am assuming that Zuzu means that the Genus Stapelia no longer exists according to the the Catalogue of Life. I don't take that to be synonymous with a statement that the Genus Stapelia no longer exists.

I'm not disputing the NGA's choice of using the Catalogue of Life as the basis for its Plant Database; that's the NGA Owner's/Administration's choice. I suppose that I could even understand a requirement for all members of the NGA to use NGA Plant Database nomenclature.

But insisting that the Genus Stapelia no longer exist sounds like dogma to me.
Salt Spring Island, BC (Zone 8b)
Dahlias Region: Pacific Northwest Cut Flowers Keeper of Poultry Region: Canadian Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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islander
May 17, 2018 11:14 PM CST
I don't trust the Catalogue of Life as the accepted and only source. Stapelia is still accepted in several databases ie. tropicos.org, RHS, ipni, etc. The Catalogue of Life has only proposed changes without being peer accepted.
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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KentPfeiffer
May 18, 2018 7:16 AM CST

Moderator

No one is claiming the Catalog of Life is the only source of taxonomic information about plants. That's not how science works in any event. It does, however, have three attributes that make it especially useful for the database here. It is extremely comprehensive, striving to list every known species of plant (and other taxon not relevant here) in the world. It is updated regularly. It is easily accessible to anyone with an internet connection.

I personally find some of the information contained in the CoL to be, let's say, perplexing. But, none of my favorite sources can match it in the three attributes listed above. Shrug! If anyone knows of a source that can, please point it out.
Name: Tiffany purpleinopp
Opp, AL 🌵🌷⚘🌹🌻 (Zone 8b)
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purpleinopp
May 18, 2018 7:37 AM CST
Peer-reviewed accuracy is the only worthwhile pursuit, regardless of amount of content.
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Name: Charlie
Aurora, Ontario (Zone 5b)
Maintenance of Perennial Beds.
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SunnyBorders
May 18, 2018 8:14 AM CST
I can fully appreciate Kent's stated reasons for the NGA's choosing to use the Catalogue of Life as the framework for its Plant Database.

My complaint has been, to be frank, several of Zuzu's comments such as "Please note that the genus no longer exists, - - -"; that without qualifying the statement with "according to the Catalogue of Life".
Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
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Jai_Ganesha
May 18, 2018 2:05 PM CST
Just in general, apologies with an "if" are known as conditional apologies are give the person apologizing wiggle room to not own it, or to back out of it. It's better to apologize full-stop.

For example: I apologize for making people re-think how they offer their apologies. Smiling
Keep going!
Name: Lin
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
May 18, 2018 5:03 PM CST
I apologize full-stop.
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
Container Gardener Region: West Virginia Multi-Region Gardener Garden Photography Amaryllis Zinnias
Gardens in Buckets Annuals Houseplants Plant and/or Seed Trader Birds Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Jai_Ganesha
May 18, 2018 5:36 PM CST
Hehe. One of the most important skills I ever learned was that I can apologize even if I'm not sure whether something happened.

To say I'm sorry for stepping on somebody's foot when I'm not sure whether did is 100% harmless in the situation that I did not cause the offense.

Only when you're a politician or a lawyer are apologies an admission of guilt. I think they are a sign of strength and maturity.
Keep going!
Name: Baja
Baja California (Zone 11b)
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Baja_Costero
May 18, 2018 10:14 PM CST
Take a look at this paper.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/...

I'm a little surprised by the sensitivity at the removal of the old genus, but if someone has a specific problem with the publication, let's talk about it.

If and when you ever need to find papers like this it's usually pretty to easy to visit Google scholar and find them. Much better to get at the source in my opinion, rather than debate the authority of the CoL (which I have historically found suspect on a few occasions).

Visit this site and enter "Ceropegia Stapelia revised", and the link above appears in the second position.

https://scholar.google.com
[Last edited by Baja_Costero - May 19, 2018 10:22 AM (+)]
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Name: Charlie
Aurora, Ontario (Zone 5b)
Maintenance of Perennial Beds.
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SunnyBorders
May 19, 2018 5:23 AM CST
Very interesting, Baja.

Proposed reorganization published in 2017.



Name: Jai or Jack
WV (Zone 6b)
Om shanti om.
Container Gardener Region: West Virginia Multi-Region Gardener Garden Photography Amaryllis Zinnias
Gardens in Buckets Annuals Houseplants Plant and/or Seed Trader Birds Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Jai_Ganesha
May 19, 2018 6:15 AM CST
Even if the genus Stapelia is no longer used, "Stapelia" is still the most used common name.

That's what happened to Coleus (which is no longer in the genus Coleus) and Amaryllis (which is no longer in the genus Amaryllis).
Keep going!
Name: Lin
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
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plantladylin
May 19, 2018 9:56 AM CST
It is very confusing!

At some point in the past couple of years, Coleus were moved from Coleus genus to Plectranthus genus but have now been moved back to Coleus! Coleus (Coleus scutellarioides)

There's still at least one species in the genus Amaryllis - Naked Lady (Amaryllis belladonna) but others that we call "Amaryllis" are in the genus Hippeastrum.

Many plants in the Chirita genus had previously been moved to genus Primulina but are now back to Chirita!

How does anyone keep up with so many changes and reversal of changes??? Blinking

~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot! ~


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