Roses forum: Strange new growth at the bottom of my Floribunda

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Name: Frank Mosher
Nova Scotia, Canada (Zone 6a)
Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Birds Roses Clematis Lilies Peonies
Region: Canadian Photo Contest Winner: 2017 Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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fwmosher
Jun 3, 2018 6:39 PM CST
RoseBlush1: Interesting that you thought of what was happening in Europe? I also had the same thought and did a search a week ago, and although I could not find an outright reference in the lay media, the Germans (in particular) in the scientific community are involved in numerous scientific studies on RRV/RRD, and have published same, actually quite mind-boggling, like the genome of the insect that carries the virus, and on and on, way over my head! In postings on this issue previously, someone gave a reference for a US researcher,
( a female and I mention the sex, only as an aid in possibly identifying who it was) who claimed as I recall, that that the incidence of RRV/RRD in the US was "blown out of proportion" my words, not hers, but to that effect. Not a soul poster repeated what she had pronounced, but opted for "the sky is falling" theory. A few years ago, there was RMD, (Rose Mosaic Disease), and it emanated from a major rose grower in Texas, I did mention same by name, where they were using diseased rootstock, and eventually had to destroy all their roses and start over. I bought some roses this year from the same grower, from Home Depot! Somehow, someone has equated the seriousness of that disease, with the one we are discussing now? Possibly?
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 3, 2018 7:37 PM CST

Moderator

I think you're confused about the difference between the two diseases, Frank. Rose Mosaic Disease (more commonly called Rose Mosaic Virus, or RMV) has been around for decades and is nowhere near as serious as Rose Rosette Disease (RRD). RMV affects the leaves (not the blooms) of roses, giving them a variegated appearance, under certain conditions, usually at the start of the season. It is said to weaken roses over the long term, but I have many roses with RMV that are at least 25-30 years old and still going strong. Some of the leaves on these roses exhibit the symptoms in spring, but the variegation disappears with the first set of leaves and doesn't reappear until the following year or a few years later.

It is probable that a rose grower in Texas used RMV-infected roses to propagate new roses and had to destroy all of the resulting stock because buyers don't want to buy roses that are known to be diseased. Some nurseries claim to sell only virus-indexed stock, while others pay little attention to the possibility of RMV in their roses. The David Austin mail-order nursery in Texas, for example, is routinely criticized for selling RMV-infected plants. It's understandable that rose growers would want to stay away from the disease. Once the roses are in your garden, however, they don't pose much of a problem. The virus is not contagious and cannot spread to other roses in the same garden or even the same bed. RMV is quite common and quite widespread. I once heard about 10 years ago that there wasn't a single Rose de Rescht on this continent without RMV.

Rose Rosette Disease (RRD) is far more damaging and far more serious.
Long Island, NY (Zone 6b)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015
MargieNY
Jun 3, 2018 10:14 PM CST
http://www.rosegeeks.com
Thanks to Ann Peck's ebook on Rose Rosette Disease (RRD), she has connected the dots. She paved the way in getting the word out long before some others would even admit to the existence of RRD.
Name: Sharon Rose
Grapevine, TX (Zone 8a)
Grace of the Lord Jesus be with all
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Altheabyanothername
Jun 4, 2018 9:11 AM CST
I am not a rose expert at all, so feel free to correct me. I am in an area that is a hot bed of Rose Rosette Disease. I check roses regularly and I have seen RRD. I have also seen my roses get some symptoms but not all. Such as excessive thorns that remain green, and excessive twisted cane growth that looks partially normal but coming out of the top of a hybrid tea. I do not believe all symptoms have to be present to be RRD in the early stages. Kind of like when we get sick. Start with general aches, fatigue, headache, fever, cough etc. Adding up to the full onset of the flu.

I am not wanting anyone to get paranoid just get in tune with your roses. Paranoia can get good rose growth cut off. 'Cause it shoots up, might be red, but like a growth spurt the rest will catch up and be normal.

By checking regularly a spot can be caught. I have removed the cane the suspect area was on and treated the rose ( and surrounding ones) with the dreaded Imidacloprid. You can remove buds. The funky growth has not reoccurred for a majority of roses.
Edit to say: Used a liquid concentrate for immediate systemic uptake.

I have had to discard a rose or two to RRD. I have one now that I am seriously watching, it can go either way. Very high probability or very sure that it was RRD. After the Imidacloprid which has a fertilizer in it, the rose grew new canes. I am checking to see if the rapid growth straightens out. I am having a hard time telling with this heat. It is a special rose that has always done well. Time will tell. If not it has to go.

I would say to Lauraogi1 and anyone else when they post suspected pictures to also try to include one or two of the whole plant. It makes it much easier to see good and bad growth. Also, if the affected area is small they can research to see if there are any options. Especially if it has not gone beyond one cane. Breakthroughs in science happen everyday.

May everyone be blessed with a super Fantastic week!
One to take to heart....1 John 4
[Last edited by Altheabyanothername - Jun 4, 2018 9:23 AM (+)]
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Name: Frank Mosher
Nova Scotia, Canada (Zone 6a)
Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Birds Roses Clematis Lilies Peonies
Region: Canadian Photo Contest Winner: 2017 Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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fwmosher
Jun 4, 2018 10:02 AM CST
Ms. Peck (and Husband) have certainly carried out a lot of research on the subject of RRV/RRD, no question! In reading one section of their work, I was surprised to read that in the US in various states, that farmers on the advice of plant scientists, actually spread RRM/RRV purposely on large tracts of their properties, particularly along fence lines where the wild R. multiflora was growing in abundance as a noxious weed. Well, I guess we reap what we sow!

My humble point is this: What certain posters on this Rose Forum are doing in blowing completely out of proportion, the incidence of RRM/RRD, is simply turning prospective new rose growers, from ever trying TO GROW A ROSE! Shameful! I have been a rose fancier/grower for a long, long time, and in the worst climate condition for growing roses, -4C here this morning, and I have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it, the highs and the lows, the survivors and the losses, and the day will never come that I will spray anything with "Cygon" to kill anything! (Wow-sure sounds a lot like Saigon, doesn't it-same chemical). To be "informed" is always a noble ideal, but to be "bludgeoned to death" to the extent that one would never, ever, try to grow a rose, because of the "stress" of worrying about RMV and RRV/RRD starts to turn into an "ism"! Such is a real shame for gardeners and the Industry! PS. I am not confused over the difference between RMV and RRV/RRD. Have lost a lot of roses purchased from Texas to RMV, but $9.95 for a rose, you take your chances. Here's to enticing new gardeners to take up Roses! And here's to the opportunity to express a diversity of opinions on this august Rose Forum!!
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jun 4, 2018 11:37 AM CST
Frank ...

The issue is not to create a panic over RRD, but to spread the word. A lot of people don't even know there may be a problem, but that has changed since Ann published her eBook. The link Margie provided is the revised eBook and was published in 2007.

Before she wrote about RRD, it was almost a secret that only a few experts knew could be a problem. RRD research was not a priority, so not much was known about it and not much was shared with general rose gardeners. They didn't even know what to look for to determine if a rose was infected.

Her eBook was one of the very first publications that stated that ANY rose was susceptible to RRD. For a long time, it was believed that only multiflora was susceptible. That has been proven not to be true in the last few years.

@CindiKS wrote a post a while back where she visited a public garden and the curators of that garden did not even know that many of their roses were infected.

Publication of information about RRD was not published in the media or even in articles of rose publications. Nursery sites never mentioned the possibility of a rose getting infected.

The US Department of Agriculture finally provided a grant to study RRD as it became more evident that it could no longer be ignored. Roses are considered a specialty crop in the US.

Since 2013, scientist and industry leaders have met annually to share information and to speed up the learning curve. Now, if you Google rose rosette disease, you can get a LOT of hits. The information is becoming more public.

The sites I posted in this thread

https://garden.org/thread/view...

are all industry publication sites except for one

https://garden.org/thread/view...

and that site is sponsored by Star Roses, one of the largest rose distributors in the US.

The fact that they have found RRD in the growing grounds of Weeks Roses, is not common knowledge. Weeks did send a letter to their vendors, but they do not know how long RRD has been in their growing fields. The rose where they found the infection, was supposed to be RRD resistant, 'Top Gun'.

That tells me that they still haven't figured out how to really test if a rose is resistant.

When a rose is infected, every cell in the rose is infected. So far, they believe that RRD will kill a rose within about four years.

The biggest problem of keeping an infected rose in your garden is that RRD is spread by mites and CAN infect other roses in your garden.

Is Sharon's method of handling her roses the right way to manage RRD in a garden. I don't know. What I know, is that I am too dang old to have to dig up roses and don't even want to go there ... Smiling

Is removing the rose as soon as you see symptoms the best way to manage RRD in your garden. It's the most cautious approach and for me, would be the best approach.

What's important to me is that people learn what the symptoms of RRD are and what they need to be looking for when they check their roses.

Sharon wrote ...

I check roses regularly and I have seen RRD. I have also seen my roses get some symptoms but not all. Such as excessive thorns that remain green, and excessive twisted cane growth that looks partially normal but coming out of the top of a hybrid tea. I do not believe all symptoms have to be present to be RRD in the early stages. Kind of like when we get sick. Start with general aches, fatigue, headache, fever, cough etc. Adding up to the full onset of the flu.

This is what is important. People need to check their roses and they need to look for problems associated with RRD.

At this time, there is no test for RRD. Symptoms can show up within a few weeks of infection or not for two years or more.

I am waving the red flag about RRD to increase awareness.

If something looks "off" with a rose in your garden, it's important not to ignore it. It may be nothing. It may be RRD or it may be something else.

Until more is known about RRD, I think to minimize the possibility of having RRD in your garden is a mistake.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 4, 2018 2:10 PM CST
Was there a panic? I guess I must have missed it. Oh, well...
Porkpal
Name: Sharon Rose
Grapevine, TX (Zone 8a)
Grace of the Lord Jesus be with all
Daylilies Composter Cottage Gardener Hibiscus Enjoys or suffers hot summers Zinnias
Salvias Bulbs Amaryllis Lilies Clematis Region: Texas
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Altheabyanothername
Jun 4, 2018 4:56 PM CST
Panic ----I think it depends where you live. Here from Dallas to Fort Worth every median, restaurant, parking lot, business and home were covered with Beautiful roses. When the disease hit it was like dominoes falling, due to the sheer number of roses.
It did not have far to travel to get from rose bush to rose bush. We lost our major city gardens, and everything in between. You could see RRD everytime you drove. I might be wrong, but I think mine came from a fast food drive thru. For over two years diseased rose bushes were their landscape flowers around the drive thru lane.

Then again diseased rose bushes were every where. So some cities stopped planting Knock Outs. I think they went to Belinda's Dream thinking it would be safe. Same story again. Now you hardly ever see a rose bush. Sad

Please take the time to read this:
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/0...

Yes, the news station puts their spin on it. But rose lovers do not go around ripping out thousands of roses for no reason. That is akin to flower murder. It is not a conspiracy. It actually happened in this area. Maybe we make a big noise about it.... That is because we do not want this to happen to you.

And after the above discussion I went out and checked the rose I was worried about. It has RRD. Originally this one had two canes affected and bad growth next to the graft. I had cut the canes and treated. At the time I wondered if it was too far in the rose and I hated to be right. Now out it comes.

I still say know your roses. That is a good thing Thumbs up All I can do is pray if it hits again... Please be at the top of a branch or a tall cane. It is a ticking time bomb. Unless I am disease free for 5 years how will I know Shrug! . But starting this year I will only plant roses in containers so I can separate them if need be. It is not all gloom and doom or stress, it is being aware of your plants.

This is a two way street. Just because you have never experienced RRD does not mean it does not exist. And just because I have experienced RRD does not mean you will. I pray you will not. This should not stop new rose growers. They can space their roses farther apart. Grow roses in privacy fenced backyards. There are other tips that could help people planting roses. Why not try to get those tips out there? I look for help and answers just in case there is something else I can do.

May everyone experience peace and joy in their homes and garden!
One to take to heart....1 John 4
Name: Virginia
Charleston, SC (Zone 8b)
Köppen climate classification Cfa
scvirginia
Jun 16, 2018 3:39 PM CST
Back to the photos... The canes and foliage look to me as though there is some R. spinossisima going on. I don't know what the rose is supposed to look like, since the photo is just of what's coming up at the base of the plants.

I have two thoughts: a) someone, somewhere thinks R. spinossisima is good (or adequate) rootstock for another (floribunda?) rose, or b) it's a Spin. seedling coming up as a volunteer in the same pot.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

R. Spinosissima cultivars are commonly called Scotch Roses, and are very hardy roses- usually fragrant and once-blooming. Some cultivars are more prickly than others...

Or, as suggested, I guess it could be a Moss rose used as a rootstock, or a Moss seedling in the same pot:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

Mossiness is usually associated with Centifolias and other Old Garden Roses, but I wonder if there are reports of modern roses such as floribundas going for the mossy look?

At any rate, it would have been helpful to determine where the rose is located before suggesting RRD. It looks like perfectly healthy growth for some species roses. I agree that the growth in the photos does not look like any floribunda I've heard of, but I'm assuming that the rest of the plant may indeed look the part?

Virginia


Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 16, 2018 4:41 PM CST
I, too, would like to have seen the rest of the plant.
Porkpal
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Jun 17, 2018 12:04 AM CST
That's not RRD. I think you got a mislabeled plant. Did you ever see a bloom? The first thing I thought when I saw it was how those prickles reminded me of my R. fedtschenkoana, except that prickles on new growth on this species are red, not green. Since I'm new, I can't yet post links to HelpMeFind (dot com), so go there yourself, select "roses", select "search", then copy and paste this:

fedtschenkoana

Now look at pictures. If all you know are modern roses, seeing prickles like that would certainly scare you into thinking about RRD, but there are quite a few roses which grow that way. R. fedtschenkoana is an ancestor to Damasks, and thus also to Centifolias and Mosses, which descended from Damasks.

But then I looked at the foliage, and now I think you may have gotten a Rugosa rather than a Floribunda. One thing at which I looked closely was the older cane, which certainly doesn't look like that of a typical Floribunda. It looks like the type of cane that emerged with lots of "hairy" prickles like on the new growth you're seeing, but which sort of "shed" them as the cane hardened. My R. fedtschenkoana does this, as do many Rugosas.

Do you have any pictures of this rose's blooms? Do the blooms have a clove scent? More information would be needed to be sure of what rose you have, but I don't see any evidence of RRD in your pictures.

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis Irises
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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zuzu
Jun 17, 2018 12:09 AM CST

Moderator

Here's the link Christopher's referring to:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose...

And here it is in our database:

Rose (Rosa fedtschenkoana)
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Jun 17, 2018 6:41 AM CST
That new cane does look a lot like my Rugosa Robusta, except for the color of the thorns and prickles.
Porkpal
Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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nippstress
Jun 18, 2018 2:36 PM CST
Those of you that know me realize that I am poor at rose ID, but could this also be a multiflora sucker from the base of a grafted rose? A lot of northern nurseries use multiflora stock. One of the ways I identify multiflora suckers is that they are dramatically more thorny canes than the primary rose, even before I dig below the graft to see where the cane is coming from. In this case, I'd be reluctant to dig out the rose unless there were other signs of RRD like Ann talks about on her manual. Extra thorny canes aren't a risk factor all by themselves, but it may mean that those canes in particular are coming from a different type of rose than originally planted. If this is from a cold zone and the only growth that's coming up this year, it may be that the original rose has died and this is only the rootstock.
I'd be particularly inclined to suspect a rootstock issue since it's coming primarily from the base, at least as a first option.
Cynthia
Name: Patty W
La Salle Illinois (Zone 5a)
Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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Pattyw5
Jun 19, 2018 3:34 PM CST
For what ever it is worth. The growth looks very healthy to me. The one shoot has been damaged where the brown spot is. I have rugosa roses with identical new growth. All thou the growth is on the pale side, the leaves are symmetrical, spacing between leaf sets is good, growth is nice and straight. As far as I can tell she is a healthy looking rose bush and likely a rugosa or a hybrid.
I also have an Easy Elegance rose with thorns just like that one. Any chance that the flowers are red on your rose.

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